Bank Failures, bailouts, limitless money printing (directly or indirectly) -- the Case for Bitcoin has never been greater. Friend of the program Zach (@BTCBap on Twitter) and host of the Value Stack Podcast (ValueStack.xyz) joins Jared for a discussion on the current state of the macro case for Bitcoin. Recorded on April 11th, 2023.
[00:00:08] We're back.
[00:00:23] Oh, we're back.
[00:00:26] And you can see a new face here.
[00:00:31] We have a previous guest of the stream and a friend of the program, Zach aka BTC
[00:00:41] Back aka Value Stack Pod in the house.
[00:00:45] What's up, Jared?
[00:00:47] Friend of hot aller, friend of all hot allers defender of defender of consensus.
[00:00:56] That's right.
[00:00:57] That's right. I love it.
[00:00:58] Love that.
[00:00:59] Thanks for having me on man.
[00:01:00] This is my first time here at Bellum.
[00:01:02] It is. Yeah, you've been on this one. We've recorded on this one before but I don't think we
[00:01:06] We've recorded on this program but I pushed it out on Twitch different breaks stream.
[00:01:12] Yeah, different deals. So like this is supposed to be supposed to be more, you know, just like F.A. News of the day kind of talk about what's going on here
[00:01:20] And it's been a while since we've had a show.
[00:01:23] It's been a few months. Obviously, I've updated most people have had some personal stuff going on
[00:01:27] But that started with subsiding a little better. You know about that.
[00:01:31] And I feel like as we've been gone, Bitcoin has had a ton of spotlight.
[00:01:37] I mean today's you know the 11th or over 30 thousand for the first time in almost 10 months, 11 months?
[00:01:43] I don't know.
[00:01:44] It's been a long time but there's been a lot of activity around Bitcoin. There's been a lot of things that have been
[00:01:50] Positive for Bitcoin not good for the entire financial system but we all kind of knew that train was coming
[00:01:56] And so you got banks failing and you got like bailouts and we continue to send money to Ukraine that's just getting burned and it's just like, you know, we're finding ways to
[00:02:06] Delude our currency and Bitcoin's mopping up. So I've excited to talk to you about what's kind of happening at Bitcoin. What's coming next?
[00:02:13] There's NFTs and those sorts of things but if you wouldn't mind taking a little bit of time here and give like a minute introduction on yourself
[00:02:23] where you came from what you do now and Yadiyada. So people you can establish yourself as the expert I know you to be but to the audience
[00:02:31] I came from the the swamps of Louisiana there to a sound like an expert nice perfect yeah my name's act BTC back I go by
[00:02:41] On the interwebs
[00:02:43] on the interwebs
[00:02:46] Student of economics, former financial advisor, turned Bitcoin or
[00:02:54] Work in self custody for a company called Casa helping people secure Bitcoin and
[00:03:02] And just really like enamored by this whole culture movement that Bitcoin has brought about partly because it intersects in the two things that I have
[00:03:12] Been most interested in my whole life, which is economics and technology
[00:03:17] So how could it not be something that would catch my eye when you tell me they're all that you know you could this is that put together
[00:03:25] 24 seven
[00:03:27] On star 365. It's like okay, I'm interested right so yeah
[00:03:33] Yeah, that's how I got kind of into this through the financial industry and
[00:03:38] Yeah, now I'm a big now here nice. Yeah, that's uh, I always I always like going to you on like
[00:03:45] Bitcoin related things because I know you'll kind of tell me the truth
[00:03:49] I'm like this is a big deal or just stupid and are like what's the set you free Jared?
[00:03:53] Yeah, yeah, so you're you've kind of been my resource for for the happenings of Bitcoin and there's been a lot going on so
[00:04:01] I found it funny because I remember when you know like d5 summer and
[00:04:08] You know 2020 and then like NFTs really became big
[00:04:11] I mean obviously punks were always there, but that was its own thing really like the open C NFT market right became big
[00:04:17] And I bring all that up because I remember a lot of Bitcoin talking has just absolutely
[00:04:24] Shitting on NFTs like forever
[00:04:28] Being like at stupid like with a point of a blockchains this you know, what are we talking about?
[00:04:34] Love a little while and that was like years ago
[00:04:37] And what happened recently with Bitcoin and in JPEGs in black chains, eh?
[00:04:44] Yeah, well now I mean now I mean the reason that JPEGs on black chains are stupid is because those black chains won't be around in 20 years
[00:04:51] So either will your JPEGs
[00:04:53] There it is but now that you can tie images to Bitcoin
[00:04:57] Through a new method by tracking individual Satoshi's and their ordinal placement
[00:05:04] Now there can be around forever because Bitcoin's in your round forever so I'm interested, you know?
[00:05:10] And there's actually been another way stamps which I don't actually think are as good as
[00:05:15] Ordinals mostly because they don't take advantage of the segway discount so they're way more expensive
[00:05:21] And you're also limited in the size that you can do it, but yeah now you can you know Casey wrote a more wrote or more put out a
[00:05:30] He's working on ordinals for a while and the ordinal steering and it was basically a way to assign a specific numerical thing like a
[00:05:38] Like a serial number to a specific Satoshi
[00:05:42] And there's 2.1 quadrillion different ones right 21 million Bitcoin
[00:05:47] So there are
[00:05:50] You know if it's okay, well if you could order if you could track them these individual ones then you could inscribe
[00:05:56] In the witness data some kind of image or metadata and then track that metadata along with it even if the
[00:06:04] UTXO that that Satoshi was on is different so even if it moves into address
[00:06:09] And so that he created this way of tracking it, but it is just a shared delusion
[00:06:13] You know the blockchain
[00:06:15] Does not know about
[00:06:17] Individual Satoshi's or or ordinal theory
[00:06:21] It's really a abstraction built on top of Bitcoin, but the metadata that
[00:06:27] People anchor to these ordinals that is on the blockchain. So to me it's like
[00:06:34] The the inscriptions are really what's cool, but without ordinal theory
[00:06:38] You wouldn't be able to find the inscriptions on the chain. So they are kind of like required that you know one you need both
[00:06:46] But there's stamps now which
[00:06:48] It can't be pruned because you can prune the witness data
[00:06:52] And then there's other stuff that we're coming out to it, but yeah NFTs on Bitcoin
[00:06:57] Who to thought?
[00:06:58] Yeah, it's it's just kind of wild because
[00:07:01] I remember years ago talking to someone in Tadfai
[00:07:07] And just like
[00:07:09] Talking theoretically about NFTs like
[00:07:14] As proof of ownership across you know web three in the real world right
[00:07:20] But there's so much that goes into that security and how do you tie and how do you know
[00:07:26] I'm not going to do this on avalanche know ethereum maybe even it's kind of hard
[00:07:31] And if you like it's probably going to open up a new sector with a Bitcoin
[00:07:37] Which is like actual real world assets on the blockchain
[00:07:42] And at least ownership because what I've seen being built are more lending ideas now
[00:07:50] Because if you're going to do it with real world assets
[00:07:53] You're not going to do it on anything other than Bitcoin which is kind of wild to think about
[00:07:59] I agree with the last statement you made where like if you are going to do that
[00:08:04] You're going to do it on Bitcoin right, but I'm not sure that you're going to do that
[00:08:07] I'm going to be coin either because of the oracle problem so yeah
[00:08:11] You know what I do think like inscriptions are digital assets
[00:08:16] They're not real world assets right there
[00:08:19] They do not exist in the physical world
[00:08:21] And this is why they're appropriate for point being pointed to by Bitcoin
[00:08:29] Because it can though there's two problems with NFTs first you have
[00:08:36] The verification of the record of the database like the change security
[00:08:40] Which is what we've been talking about up to this point like if the change is not there
[00:08:45] The thing that says that you own it isn't there either right so you're at your ownership that's represented on the chain
[00:08:51] Is only as good as the chain itself which is why Bitcoin is the best one for that
[00:08:56] But there's also the oracle problem which is okay, you solve that but then like how do you know even if you have the ownership on chain that the real world asset that it's supposed to track is there
[00:09:06] Yeah, I counted for and so this is why I believe digital nature to assets are naturally a much better fit for
[00:09:15] For this like tracking of ownership on a digital blockchain like that because there's no oracle problem that exists here here. I mean that makes sense and I think that actually one of the episodes that taxi and I have recorded for a whole different series talks about
[00:09:36] What link is trying to do and bridging
[00:09:40] Oracleing
[00:09:42] I'm probably not very good to say that real world information and the blockchain to be used for for stuff such as this which is
[00:09:50] Pretty wild to me about that idea, but yeah you're probably right. I just it's funny to me because
[00:09:58] Of the turn of hat over the past like three four years of like jpegs or stupid which you know they are
[00:10:03] But they are I mean they're stupid on Bitcoin too don't get me wrong. Like they're stupid and not in this for drapecs
[00:10:10] No, no, no, but Bitcoin is a is a network security infrastructure. Yeah, and so if like you value of jpegs as a free market participant then it's there and offered to you to you
[00:10:26] Take advantage of that security right you just got to pay for it. Yeah sure and as long as you're pay for it
[00:10:32] I'm okay with it because it fits in the rules and if it doesn't fit in the rules or I'm sorry if the
[00:10:39] rules shouldn't allow for it without the different discussion. Yeah
[00:10:43] Speaking of rules and allowing for it and
[00:10:48] Bitcoin upgrades or changes to Bitcoin have been notoriously slow and rejected
[00:10:56] Just because yeah, we got you know how much are you going to put into a block right and what's the bandwidth and yet he had he had he had with it also just changes so
[00:11:03] Would you mind telling people like tap root, segway
[00:11:09] You know things that have been proposed things that have been implemented like what is that how does that fit into the scheme of the evolution of Bitcoin?
[00:11:17] Yeah, well, segway it was a way to
[00:11:21] Segregate the witness data
[00:11:24] From the rest of the transaction
[00:11:26] It was essential for transaction maliability because essentially anybody could go and change the transaction ID before segway
[00:11:33] So lighting network couldn't really work without this upgrade
[00:11:38] By allowing for the witness data to be kind of partitioned off from the rest of the transaction it allowed for this upgrade to occur
[00:11:46] While remaining backwards compatible with those who chose not to take advantage of it
[00:11:51] It sort of kind of
[00:11:54] Manipulated the block size in the the old way
[00:11:59] Was block weight and the new or the old way was like the
[00:12:05] Sats per bite or like the number of bites whereas now it's called weight units
[00:12:09] So they did this by basically anything in the witness calculation part of the transaction has a 25% weight and so you you know if all of it was segway compatible and theory like if every transit at the block was full
[00:12:23] It was full of a hundred percent segway transactions, then the you know the the hypothetical like analogous size would be four megabytes, but
[00:12:33] If it was all old style transactions, then it would still be one and so it sort of gives it like a soft limit for the witness data only and for this part and so
[00:12:45] This really like there's it really was a big non entity because most of the time I mean it's been non factor because
[00:12:52] It's been in segway was like 2017 2018 like the box size wars, you know 2017 and
[00:12:59] The it hasn't like mattered because the blocks have been relatively empty other than like during that pump in 2021
[00:13:07] And so
[00:13:09] segway adoption is not really taken off that quickly until there was a need for it
[00:13:15] And so but now that it has now that the people want to put all these you know extra extraneous data
[00:13:24] Into the witness all of a sudden there's a pretty much every every block is full right and so there's a all of a sudden you're seeing these blocks be full, but the
[00:13:35] You know your question about tap root well this tap root was like another upgrade that came about in 2021 and
[00:13:44] In a similar way it has some opt-in capabilities that you don't have to use
[00:13:51] It was voted in like again
[00:13:54] While ago, but it hasn't really been adopted because there was not really a need for it yet and
[00:14:02] Inscriptions take advantage of
[00:14:06] The changes the top root
[00:14:09] Upgrade brought about sure and so you've seen a massive spike
[00:14:13] In the adoption rate of the new tap root style
[00:14:18] Bitcoin addresses in part do
[00:14:23] To
[00:14:24] The adoption of ordinals and inscriptions which is now
[00:14:31] Incentivizing wallet providers
[00:14:34] To build tap root support
[00:14:37] Which is then
[00:14:38] Encouraging other wallet providers to build that compatibility as well so
[00:14:44] It's sort of needed this catalyst momentum to get some adoption
[00:14:49] It's interesting so nothing's really changed. It's just finally being utilized for in one and a half years later
[00:14:57] Yeah, exactly and I'm segway it's been slowly being adopted but tap root was basically nothing until
[00:15:05] Until just recently
[00:15:08] Okay, so if I'm if I'm asking you
[00:15:14] My personal expert on all things Bitcoin you saw this catalyst
[00:15:21] Recently with ordinals and inscriptions, etc. That kind of sent this firing you mentioned
[00:15:27] Wallet providers
[00:15:30] Integrating with these things because they have to now
[00:15:34] Where do we go from here right so like this started us down a path and like we saw these iterations on the Ethereum blockchain where it was like this became that became that
[00:15:43] Transactions you know like all these things to handle the bandwidth does this
[00:15:50] Does this change anything like moving forward like what do you think comes from here?
[00:15:55] Well, the thing I'm most excited about is music to which is a new form of multi signature wallet structure
[00:16:04] Using key aggregation essentially hides the fact that it's a multi-sig wallet from the blockchain
[00:16:10] And it also makes the fees for a multi-sig wallet the same as a single sig
[00:16:18] So it's more private and it no longer costs more to use this type of redundancy and this is a tap root enabled multi-sig
[00:16:28] So not possible without tap root, no one's going to implement it without other people using tap root
[00:16:34] So it's like you know or knows like the
[00:16:38] Trojan horse for music
[00:16:41] Yeah, so that's like what I'm what I mean I mean I work. No, that's good
[00:16:45] That's what I'm talking about. That's wild. Yeah, yeah, I worked for a self-custody company
[00:16:49] So like this is like what I'm most excited about and also it's just like
[00:16:54] I mean it's just going to be better for privacy because on-chain analytics and KYC or evil in my opinion
[00:17:00] And the more you can hide the fact that you're using a multi-sig the less you stand out and from that
[00:17:08] You know maybe the little bit more physical safety that you'll go have
[00:17:14] So it's interesting you say that because
[00:17:18] I feel like
[00:17:20] Every
[00:17:23] Major headline
[00:17:25] When it comes to like crypto and
[00:17:28] Politics or regulation or oversight
[00:17:32] Is around trying to claw out as much transparency as possible for the authorities that may be to see what the hell's going on
[00:17:48] I'm thinking about you know the stuff you see
[00:17:52] Coinbase getting hit with whether like we got to see you know your
[00:17:56] customer data and
[00:18:00] They're talking about all the people that were affected by hefty access essentially being all the names we can give into the US government right like just like things that are crazy
[00:18:08] To be able to look at it's like oh you didn't say that you've written on FTAx and your taxes
[00:18:12] But here we can see that you traded from 2018 you know whatever or 20 to 21
[00:18:18] So
[00:18:19] Don't you feel like this war is coming like like sooner rather than later there's going to be some
[00:18:25] Some massive decoration we'll just talk about the US by the US government where it's like if you do not report in this way
[00:18:38] Then you're running a file of the law subject to very serious penalties
[00:18:45] What like is that like an active thought is that an active
[00:18:51] We needed to develop this so there's infrastructure so there's economies there's things where you never have to dox yourself like you said privacy on the blockchain multi-sick whatever, but
[00:19:02] Like what do you think happens how how does Bitcoin iterate?
[00:19:07] To head off those sorts of developments and dude. I don't know
[00:19:14] I don't know
[00:19:17] It's not like it's not being considered right
[00:19:20] The privacy aspect of Bitcoin is the biggest flaw
[00:19:25] It's also what allows for it to be transparent and trustless
[00:19:30] That the lack of privacy right there. So
[00:19:33] Yeah, I mean my current theory is that no one will transact on chain well, you know not no one
[00:19:47] You know Joe blow going to the grocery store is not transacting on chain. Sure, right the end user who is using Bitcoin as a medium of exchange
[00:19:58] Is not likely to be using Bitcoin on chain for two reasons privacy second reason fees
[00:20:05] Third reason congestion which is like fees
[00:20:10] Because like if you, you know, okay, there's 21 million Bitcoin 10 billion people cool. You got 200,000 sats per person
[00:20:18] But less because some people have more than that right and so
[00:20:24] Like you only got a couple hundred thousand sats. You're not going to spend 2,000 sats on a single on chain transaction
[00:20:30] Right, right that's like 10% of your network. What you're not going to do that. That's I mean that's that it will not happen
[00:20:38] So what you'll see is Bitcoin become the institutional settlement layer and for all like on chain and you will be moving 10 Bitcoin
[00:20:48] From this wallet to this wallet and that will be a billion dollars and you will be willing to pay those 2000 satoches for that settlement insurance at that point
[00:21:00] But I don't think end users are good. So
[00:21:03] I think you'll see a mix of custodial use I mean as much as I like advocate self custody people are not going to
[00:21:10] You can take so custody of your dollars kind of I mean you can cash I guess they could still print it out from under you but
[00:21:18] Kind of
[00:21:19] So people but like you can also just put in the back and like people are going to use custodial Bitcoin
[00:21:24] And they're going to continue to get burned over and over and over again as the Bitcoin banks go bankrupt over and over and over again by making the same mistakes
[00:21:32] And reserve that the Fiat banks made over and over and over again the difference being that the Federal Reserve can't bail them out with infinite money
[00:21:40] So it's going to happen much more frequently until the market figures it out and stops trusting their wealth with these scams
[00:21:47] So but there will be some you know fractional or maybe even the fully reserved back custodial Bitcoin banks
[00:21:55] Or you know, they'll be 99% back or something. I don't know and then eventually they'll be 1% back because people are greedy
[00:22:01] But my point is that there will be a mix of custodial and non-studial arrangements people will have all types still use lightning
[00:22:09] But I don't think the average person will be holding funds on chains so they won't be sending Bitcoin in a ultra transparent way only the you know institutions
[00:22:20] Or maybe like the people who are really early who have an institutional level of wealth to their name because they bought 10 Bitcoin or something like
[00:22:28] Those are the people who will transact on chain but those people will also be billionaire, right? So like they're not like they're not like the rest of the world in that consideration. So lightning
[00:22:41] You can already move Bitcoin off chain with cash out. Like if you just give me your cash tag, mine's BTC bat. You can just send me Bitcoin. You can just literally send any amount of Bitcoin to be to dollar sign BTC bat and I'll get it
[00:22:54] And then I can withdraw it to my own wallet whenever I want. So there's all kinds of different ways to move Bitcoin. You don't have to do it on chain, but when you're talking about hey I'm buying a house or maybe even in a house was like won't be that big of a deal. All right, I'm moving from you know, I'm moving 10 Bitcoin from this wallet to this wallet
[00:23:12] Okay, yeah, bro. We're sending it on chain and I'll pay the fee and I want to settle. I'm not sure it's okay. That's what I envision being the outcome
[00:23:21] Given the path that we're on today
[00:23:24] Which is why lightning is important because
[00:23:28] Like layer two's half I mean segway enabled lightning and lightning won't be the only layer two like I said cash out they'll be custodial layer two
[00:23:36] Right right right there'll be non custodial layer two's they'll be layer three's like cash you not to be confused with cash out
[00:23:47] So like that's that's kind of the part where like I
[00:23:52] Feel like Bitcoin needs to be very well positioned to take advantage of what's coming because I don't think they're the way with this FDX blow up and now there's all these people that are trying to hurt crypto
[00:24:04] At the same time as like they're advocating for printing and destroying the dollar, which is funny but
[00:24:12] That evolution of like the actual digital economy will be stined by regulation yeah
[00:24:24] And so it's it's like the quite frankly. It's the case for Ethereum because the theorems are working very well with roll up
[00:24:33] With batching with bandwidth like essentially pulling the internet into Ethereum right like they're they're charging full stream ahead
[00:24:45] But you and I both know that like what people want out of Ethereum is essentially to pull it back to Bitcoin
[00:24:52] You know, I mean like the to say that like the true money is in Bitcoin and we're using it as leverage or loans or whatever it has against
[00:25:00] On Ethereum as this whole things being built out it just feels like
[00:25:06] There's this harmony and
[00:25:09] There's gonna be major disruption for what happens next because I don't think we get out of 2023
[00:25:15] Maybe 2024 without some serious regulatory shots coming right for all of us
[00:25:22] Yeah, that's why KYC is evil because like the regulate I mean the whole point of Bitcoin is to separate money from state at least
[00:25:30] In my opinion, I agree and so I mean like
[00:25:35] They're gonna fight it and like they're gonna try to stop at the whole uphill a Bitcoin is that it's was thought
[00:25:42] sufficiently with with it was designed with enough sufficient fourth thought
[00:25:46] To not allow for that to happen to not to not become compromised by the government
[00:25:53] Whereas like Ethereum I mean and look like I'm I'm just I'm not saying that it's going to zero
[00:25:58] I'm just saying that I don't have the same level of confidence that
[00:26:03] Theory and we can miss in a nation state attack is Bitcoin and that's like 100%
[00:26:08] 100% right yeah and like for me it's like
[00:26:12] Ethereum seems more like an investment to trade in and out of the Bitcoin cycles if you're trying to earn more Bitcoin
[00:26:20] Than it is something that I want to build a legacy from for like multiple generations and build on that so
[00:26:26] But you know like I don't honestly just don't get a shit anymore dude
[00:26:30] I just don't tell people I just like I don't care. I don't care like the whole point of Bitcoin for me is to be able to live my life
[00:26:37] on a stable foundation and
[00:26:40] Not have to live in the ups and downs of the hamster wheel and just have some predictability of my life because life is already
[00:26:47] So unpredictable yeah that I just want like some some kind of framework that I can count on and like
[00:26:54] Bro Ethereum has so many hard forks that I like I'm not even throwing shots at it
[00:26:59] Like I'm just being
[00:27:01] Objective like there are so many hard forks and so many changes. It's like Bitcoin is 30 something like me and has figured out who and what it is
[00:27:10] And is not gonna change yeah, and like sure like will it has got an open mind and will like allow you to put some you know
[00:27:18] Tatoo's on it like I guess like
[00:27:20] Inscriptions you know sure I guess like you know you may be soft in a real age, but but Ethereum is a preteen
[00:27:26] It's a teenager. It has no idea it's going through an identity crisis and that's not to say that it's a scam outright
[00:27:34] It's just it's changing so much that it doesn't give me the framework that I'm looking for where with what I look for Bitcoin to provide
[00:27:45] And it's a different use. I think people look out at
[00:27:48] Those who are not dogmatic about Bitcoin and Ethereum
[00:27:51] I think of those who do hold both view them as different purposes and
[00:27:58] Yeah, and so that's like that's how I look out of two and
[00:28:02] Yeah, I don't know man. It's I do think there's gonna be some regulatory action
[00:28:08] I don't know the outcome. I think if there's any coin
[00:28:14] Aside from Bitcoin that can
[00:28:17] withstand regulatory fight
[00:28:20] It is probably Ethereum. Yeah, yeah
[00:28:23] So you know well I don't think that it's truly
[00:28:31] I think Ethereum is not going anywhere and barring some mass security issue with I don't either
[00:28:38] You know it'll still exist internationally even if it yeah
[00:28:41] It'll still exist even if it gets banned in the US
[00:28:44] That's right, so it's not going anywhere. It could lose its value. You could take it
[00:28:48] But you know so many things are being built upon it and then iterated beyond that that it's kind of making itself ubiquitous
[00:28:55] I had to mention the things like
[00:28:57] You know trying to connect to the real world. That's not really my point the point is you and I
[00:29:03] You know you talk about the United States and
[00:29:07] I mean
[00:29:09] If it becomes exceedingly hard for you
[00:29:14] to actually realize
[00:29:19] Bitcoin into any sort of tangible anything for your life that is hard. Okay, so like I
[00:29:27] You know I have different sets of how I invest right I've Bitcoin that I hold onto that I never touch
[00:29:33] Yeah, and then I
[00:29:35] Have stuff that I'm trading in and out of and occasionally sometimes will take money out
[00:29:40] Into fiat for purchases here and there and then put it back in when I feel
[00:29:45] Times right
[00:29:46] Bad ability to get on and off chain is truly at risk without giving an unbelievable level of
[00:29:53] Transparency to the government where it's a where did you buy it? How much did you buy it for what'd you trade it on?
[00:29:58] Let me see every transaction you've ever done and that bothers me tremendously
[00:30:03] Now you have a different view on it because you're like I'm acquiring and you're the hotdler
[00:30:08] That I know and it's a no, I have the same view on that that's like
[00:30:12] Huge problem. KYC is a big problem. It's a huge problem
[00:30:16] And I don't know where that ends and then quite frankly it's what it ends with an alcohol in your door and a gun fight
[00:30:21] That's right
[00:30:22] It's like it honestly
[00:30:24] Probably wear it ends which is why I don't even want to talk about it because yeah, it's not fun to think about
[00:30:30] They won't like this is one of the naive
[00:30:34] Takes that I feel many bit quinters hold
[00:30:39] They can't get my Bitcoin. Yeah, well, they're gonna get you
[00:30:43] And then like oh, they didn't get your Bitcoin you're right like they didn't and your family may still be able to have access to the wealth and like if you want to go down as a martyr
[00:30:57] That's your right. I guess yeah, but like I would like to keep the funds that I've saved for my family
[00:31:03] Pass them on to the next generation and be able to retire and live my old age and peace
[00:31:10] Not in a box
[00:31:12] Yeah, so like I think that many people
[00:31:16] underestimate
[00:31:19] How willing they're going to be to fight
[00:31:23] This is why you can't am I opinion you cannot have access to your Bitcoin
[00:31:28] You have to do this stuff like multi-sick because if you can give it up you will
[00:31:33] Because if you're gonna choose between fucking living and not
[00:31:37] I mean, come on
[00:31:39] Like you're not gonna pull the trigger like you're not gonna get the Bitcoin you know this
[00:31:43] Well that doesn't matter like is there no?
[00:31:46] There's no I mean
[00:31:48] Is there no the the counter argument that Bitcoin refuses well, there's no incentive to attack because they won't get anything
[00:31:55] And it's like yes, that is correct
[00:31:58] People aren't rational they do things without the right incentives aligned
[00:32:05] Otherwise if the incentive people followed incentive no one would own fiat anymore
[00:32:10] today
[00:32:11] So like you can't bank on people not gonna attack you because
[00:32:18] Like they're not gonna get it they're not gonna get anything
[00:32:22] That may discourage some people
[00:32:24] But it's not going to discourage everyone
[00:32:27] People just senselessly attack random people on the street for no reason and in rob them they just
[00:32:32] Initialing initiations and stuff so right I mean think about that
[00:32:37] Sorry, just just right there you think senseless
[00:32:39] Synthless tacking and I really don't mean the jump is ready point there, but like that's why you have access to it
[00:32:44] Right and think about one time like let's say
[00:32:48] Let's say the government comes out and says like if you
[00:32:51] Have reported any sort of Bitcoin earnings on your taxes in your life ever
[00:32:56] You need to ease level of disclosures, okay?
[00:32:58] We need to see what you did and where and we're gonna dig into it
[00:33:01] We're gonna essentially pin it down to you now they have this big list of people who have
[00:33:06] Transact out on the blockchain or just owned it or whatever maybe and then that that list gets leaked somehow
[00:33:13] It will it absolutely will
[00:33:16] The government is terrible at protecting data absolutely wiky leaks man
[00:33:22] Like that should never have been possible even with an internal person, okay?
[00:33:26] Like it shouldn't even have been possible
[00:33:29] Yeah, you're so scared numbers tied to your UTXS
[00:33:32] It will right it's
[00:33:34] It's okay. I mean it is tied to already yeah, it's good point because like indirectly
[00:33:41] Yeah, dude okay what I mean like to be honest like
[00:33:46] to anyone who doesn't own Bitcoin
[00:33:49] And is starting to think about a client do yourself a favor
[00:33:55] Pay the 10 or 15 percent premium and get non KYC Bitcoin you're welcome for the fucking sage advice
[00:34:07] Don't cheap out
[00:34:10] Pay the premium
[00:34:12] It's worth it. I'm not gonna say it again. It's worth it. I said it one more time. Yeah, it's worth the premium
[00:34:20] This is the most important thing I will say on this podcast
[00:34:24] Yeah, pay the premium for no KYC Bitcoin you will thank yourself and
[00:34:30] BTC-bap in future later
[00:34:34] Yeah, I don't I don't disagree. I mean it's uh it's it's a harrowy thought it's a scary thought
[00:34:38] It is and you don't know the more flexibility you have in the future the better and
[00:34:43] You don't want to be like well, I can't do this because they know
[00:34:47] That's right
[00:34:49] Think with the end in mind
[00:34:51] Yeah, and so I asked I asked that because I don't know the capabilities of what can be done
[00:34:56] And upgrades and soft forks and whatever may be but sorry. I should have I should have bit the sensor thing
[00:35:03] No, it's a neat toy though
[00:35:06] like
[00:35:08] What I don't
[00:35:10] You know
[00:35:13] Seagrid network got a ton of pub when the first came out because they were the first ones to try to truly
[00:35:19] Cloak transactions as a blockchain, okay? It's a piece of shit. It doesn't work
[00:35:23] But it was a good idea
[00:35:25] Okay, let's all cryptos good ideas poor execution there's 100% right yeah could not agree more
[00:35:31] There's some good execution out there and that's why they're big corn. Yeah, well, there's others
[00:35:35] But not to the same level not okay, so there's good execution there's good near-term execution nobody's perfect
[00:35:40] Good, you know is great execution
[00:35:43] FTX
[00:35:44] That was flawless execution of a scan of a scam right under people's noses for more than was like two three years
[00:35:52] Yeah, I mean he was around longer the element it was long. I mean that's longer that's some high
[00:35:57] Performing individuals there. It's amazing what Adderall can do and I know
[00:36:01] I'll tell you what if if SbF is still alive in years
[00:36:06] I will be shocked
[00:36:08] I won't be
[00:36:09] I mean he's no I said that someone's gonna knock him off because like you had do have had some power for people
[00:36:14] We're complicit helping you to get that far
[00:36:17] Yeah
[00:36:19] You know sure
[00:36:20] So I was like not so sure the regulatory agency is like oh a coinbase might like
[00:36:26] You know they had like SEC and Coinbase are kind of like you know having a creed for
[00:36:32] Preview, you know and
[00:36:34] And they're like I'm not sure the SEC's gonna win this one
[00:36:37] I think the SEC's out of their element and Coinbase is ready and
[00:36:42] There but but but the problem is that
[00:36:45] You can't win they are game
[00:36:48] And eventually you may win this round but you'll lose it. Yeah, you're never gonna win stop fighting yeah
[00:36:53] Now so that's honestly if I'm 100% honest
[00:36:56] I think Coinbase is actually very well positioned to like score some big wins for the crypto industry near term
[00:37:00] Again, we all know long term with this thing ends up
[00:37:03] And I think it's gonna 100% buoy
[00:37:05] They're business for the next generation because well, they are going to be the talisman
[00:37:09] Their whole band their whole company is based on Ethereum yeah like it's kind of sad that they have
[00:37:15] Because there there is
[00:37:17] Is there a coinbase in eth I don't think so the net the term coinbase is referring to the
[00:37:24] Block subsidy that is issued new Bitcoin each block
[00:37:30] So the term coinbase is a Bitcoin term
[00:37:33] And they were a Bitcoin company and
[00:37:36] Let me know whatever they had Bitcoin. I don't really care. I don't feel any type of way but it's sort of
[00:37:41] It's sad just more as like a
[00:37:45] Like they they are so dependent on Ethereum they've issued their own Coinbase eth
[00:37:52] Liquid-staking token oh yeah, they've issued their own blockchain base chain which is like a layer two for eth
[00:37:59] They have issued the you know
[00:38:02] They did all the naming conventions like the dot crypto dot eth or whatever
[00:38:07] Like they're deep in the E and S stuff so like it's just like their whole they're they're staking reward
[00:38:13] They're one of the largest if not the largest validator on Ethereum
[00:38:17] So like they just are deeply deeply embedded in the eth theory they are invested as a company in many many many many many many
[00:38:26] eth base venture
[00:38:28] Companies to their venture arm yeah, you know, I mean look one of our one of them is the one I work for like yeah, I just like
[00:38:38] I think there's a world where you can be objective about something and not tie your emotion into it
[00:38:43] And it's like from from I guess it's not very objective that like I'm disappointed in that what I mean to say is that
[00:38:51] It is not surprising that Coinbase is so ready to defend their stance on the security status of
[00:39:02] Their business in particular ethereum ecosystem because so much of their business livelihood is tied to the succession
[00:39:10] Are like to the success of this ecosystem sure itself of the prolifer. Yeah, and so I don't just agree with that
[00:39:18] What I would say is
[00:39:20] And this is where I've I've routinely given big coiners a really hard time in their hatred of Ethereum and I know that's not you
[00:39:29] But there are many that do yeah, it's like a lot of people
[00:39:34] got interested in Bitcoin after
[00:39:38] Getting into crypto a different way yeah, almost I think eventually like your journey and really
[00:39:44] Yeah, yeah, so it's like you getting because you're like oh, I what about this MBA tap shots with your stupid
[00:39:48] I know a lot of people that are collectors that are like oh my god, I'll be a tap shot. I thought I would do that
[00:39:51] Wait, where does this go? Okay, how do I move a book four steps later you're like hey Bitcoin's pretty cool
[00:39:56] So like they have a role that even though it's like it's too bad that they got that far deep
[00:40:00] However, I think that far that level of depth is helping Bitcoin more than almost anything else apart from more bailouts has ever done
[00:40:08] Dale by Bitcoin new Christian Corole is some CK
[00:40:13] Bit coin magazine yeah
[00:40:15] He tweeted this earlier because you know a turn coin to turn CK's razor never attribute to ignorance or stupidity
[00:40:23] What could be attributed to malice instead like and I I that is like it just made me think of that like yeah people don't admit that they
[00:40:34] Didn't wake up the first day and we're like oh the orange pills sitting there glowing above
[00:40:40] They're bad and they said oh I gotta have it Bitcoin only 21 million
[00:40:45] You know let me run seven nodes in my basement like people don't that's not real
[00:40:51] What it is is a level and just what I've gotten into that that that was and so much is like there's a level of ego
[00:40:57] a lack of ego or
[00:41:01] A putting down of your ego that you have to get to
[00:41:06] In order to understand Bitcoin period
[00:41:09] It's like oh the world is not the way that I thought it was
[00:41:13] If you can admit that to yourself you're ahead of most people already yeah
[00:41:20] And the ability to be flexible in your worldview
[00:41:24] This is oftentimes a problem that Bitcoin is out there not flexible and they're like Bitcoin's not meant to have entities on it
[00:41:30] Well now it is I guess
[00:41:32] Right
[00:41:33] But the problem being that like this this lack of flexibility
[00:41:38] You know in this worldview just like creeps up like all over all over life too like and and so I think there's a level of
[00:41:48] Just
[00:41:50] You know like there's a level of just temperance and that that people
[00:41:56] would benefit from having and
[00:42:00] There's a level of ego
[00:42:03] Dropping that you have to get to
[00:42:06] to both become a Bitcoin maximalist but also
[00:42:10] to admit
[00:42:12] Additionally and and these are not together to admit that like that you did not wake up one morning and were there
[00:42:19] Yeah, and like and even furthermore
[00:42:23] I'm still like I was more of a Bitcoin maximalist a year ago than I am today yeah for sure
[00:42:28] uh
[00:42:30] It's not a a point that you become
[00:42:33] And I think that like like you said dirt journey like
[00:42:38] The level of humility and to say the hey like I don't have it all figured out
[00:42:43] I'm learning
[00:42:45] I I
[00:42:47] Like to learn with honest intentions yeah, I may not have all the right answers
[00:42:54] And know that my intentions never to mislead
[00:42:57] Sure, right?
[00:42:58] Maybe I make mistakes because I'm learning out in public which is a brave thing for people to do
[00:43:05] But the problem at Bitcoin is how it was where the people intentionally mislead
[00:43:10] and use their platform
[00:43:13] to promote things which
[00:43:16] In the Bitcoiners opinion
[00:43:19] is malicious
[00:43:20] Right and that
[00:43:22] Unfortunately because of the
[00:43:25] Transp- of the you know hidden kind of nature of blockchains and like the newness of it
[00:43:31] People use it as a scammers playground and
[00:43:35] It oftentimes ruins
[00:43:37] The message behind why Bitcoin could be a meaningful movement for the world yeah
[00:43:44] It takes it
[00:43:45] I think that's why there's such this like
[00:43:48] You know doctrine within the communities yeah
[00:43:51] It's important stuff and we're fighting a big battle that's how they feel I guess and it is and it think it's a generational battle
[00:44:00] And we'll see when it gets when it gets resolved or how it gets resolved but
[00:44:06] Yeah, I don't I don't disagree with anything you said
[00:44:08] I think it's just that that flexibility and openness to education too and that's why
[00:44:12] Like I I poke fun about the pictures on the blockchain bullshit and then becoming a thing but it's like
[00:44:19] In some ways it's refreshing that something new happened and like there's a wrong with like lightning
[00:44:23] Have in tavern whatever and like that was all nice to see but functionally didn't do anything
[00:44:29] And this is just caused a lot of those things to be upgraded
[00:44:32] It used you're like yeah, right sweet like we're doing something new so like that's the part where my brain
[00:44:37] Get goes there there's going to be further iterations like there's going to be more like you said level two's little three
[00:44:42] Could we could be batch transactions together could they be clouded could they be cloaked?
[00:44:48] Which again is part of the problem because like you said it's all based on
[00:44:52] Transparent accounting which we never get from
[00:44:56] fractional reserve federal you know banks right
[00:45:01] But
[00:45:03] On the base layer yeah
[00:45:05] Only there's only the transparency on how many units are in circulation
[00:45:11] Even one derivative above where I have a wallet. I'm a custodian and there's 500 people that think they got this much Bitcoin
[00:45:19] You don't know all the addresses that I got Bitcoin tied to so like if I was a bank like I'm a Bitcoin bank
[00:45:25] I owe you x amount of Bitcoin to my customers
[00:45:28] I have why amount of Bitcoin in my possession that I'm supposed to owe people unless the customers are where of every
[00:45:34] Single address that I have Bitcoin on they don't know if I'm fractionally reserved
[00:45:37] or not
[00:45:38] Even if they know the whole system itself is not fractionally reserved
[00:45:42] They don't know if your fraction reserve mess would happen to block fly and many of these other companies sell see us so
[00:45:48] Like
[00:45:49] Yeah, I mean people people people people are gonna be people with or without Bitcoin
[00:45:54] What Bitcoin is is like removes the most base layer of
[00:45:58] of manipulation but that's it just that everything else like from set layer two on you're still gonna get screwed
[00:46:04] And you think that's its destiny like ultimately that's yes big Bitcoin's destiny is just purely that when the 100
[00:46:11] set now got it
[00:46:13] It's just a system to verify value and
[00:46:18] That I don't think the NFTs are gonna like really stick around
[00:46:23] They will stick around if they're already there
[00:46:26] But remember Jared
[00:46:28] Earlier we were talking about using the base layer for transactions all right 21 million Bitcoin
[00:46:34] 10 billion people to 110,000 sets per person well
[00:46:42] Inscription to put an image on the blockchain cost more than a
[00:46:47] More weight
[00:46:48] Than a normal just sending Bitcoin to someone
[00:46:52] So if it costs you know 10 Satoshi's per bite
[00:46:56] And so you're spending like a thousand sets or 800 tats or something on a transaction to send
[00:47:02] Well, dude, it's gonna cost you 15 20,000 sets to put an image on it
[00:47:07] And so that is only for the very very very very very very very rich
[00:47:12] Right because that's not what is gonna spend that right so this is a thing that's like a novelty thing now
[00:47:18] That will be like a cool thing that happened in historical archives and by the way you can check out
[00:47:24] Some cool inscriptions on the early
[00:47:27] Early ones I here's just one of value stack. Pa, I don't know
[00:47:31] So everything you say and I agree with
[00:47:34] I'm guessing there were plenty of people around during dementia steving
[00:47:38] It was like these paintings are nice but this shit's not gonna matter like who's gonna pay real money for up to you know for earlier in our
[00:47:44] DaVinci and the future
[00:47:46] Well, I'll tell you who fucking super mega rich people will
[00:47:49] It's right but they're only that rich because of the fiat manipulation
[00:47:53] It wouldn't have a ability to just spend superfluously if they didn't have such a fiat can't tell you in benefit
[00:48:00] Calm down
[00:48:02] I'm just collecting
[00:48:04] Collectors collect they shouldn't be that rich
[00:48:07] Okay, they shouldn't have the ability to collect all of these things
[00:48:11] Yeah, those resources should be that's something to come in us. Let me stop
[00:48:14] Yeah, dude like again. I don't disagree with you
[00:48:17] Distribute while while while we're living in this fantasy land just and I'm fly and also have like the powers of
[00:48:23] High-fly like an evil yeah, dude. That's what I mean
[00:48:26] Like I don't disagree really. Yeah, if we're writing it all from scratch and we get to reduce this idea over again
[00:48:30] I'm with you now that we're here we can there's going to be
[00:48:35] They're going to be collectors. There's going to be people that value this shit
[00:48:38] I agree because we cannot reduce society from scratch. It's not possible there's two things about
[00:48:44] Future their true
[00:48:46] It hasn't happened yet and it's going to be rooted in the present yeah, so
[00:48:54] There isn't no like starting over like we have to build off of what we have today
[00:48:58] There is always always rooted in the present. So yeah because of it exists today because it's rooted in the present
[00:49:04] The things that you were just mentioning they'll exist in Bitcoin
[00:49:07] Yeah, there'll be stocks that are traded in Bitcoin price you know when my yeah the stock market will be open
[00:49:13] 24 7 365 like because that's how it should be yeah
[00:49:17] It was funny he traded in bits this side. I argue with people all the time about gun control
[00:49:23] And like not a good on that path but I'm like look dude yeah in theory if we get rid of every gun in the world
[00:49:29] Out of it be great. But if one gun exists it's over. It's over so it's like
[00:49:35] Let's work with that fantasy world of like there's no guns in the world will never exist
[00:49:40] Let's talk about how we perceive moving forward and then like that jump from from reality to you know
[00:49:48] It's all that incentives dude, you know how you stop gun violence
[00:49:52] by discouraging
[00:49:55] By increasing the cost of participating in gun violence yeah
[00:50:01] If you try to steal
[00:50:04] And you and you have a high probability of getting shot
[00:50:09] Yeah, probably not gonna steal
[00:50:11] Yeah, I mean you might like and people will and people will they'll people people that like we're like I'm worth the calculation bro
[00:50:19] Yeah, they're gonna get shot
[00:50:20] But that's the thing is like there's no fear of retribution
[00:50:24] So there's no costs to taking the risk
[00:50:28] Where's the same with Bitcoin in the opposite where it's like there's no benefit
[00:50:33] There was only cost of risk like there's no bet because you're not gonna get the Bitcoin
[00:50:38] So there it discourages you from even doing it in the first place and this is what all of Jason Laurrey's book is about soft war
[00:50:46] He says Bitcoin can be used as a power projection tool you don't actually have to exert the force
[00:50:53] You just need to project that you can
[00:50:57] Exert the force enough to discourage them from trying to up with you in the first place
[00:51:03] Yeah, and that it's sort of this game theoretical equation where it's like well if we both know mutually
[00:51:08] Assure destruction is coming neither of us are gonna participate
[00:51:11] And this is the whole thing with like double spending problem. It's the same game theoretical concept
[00:51:17] This is why I'm starting to more and more think the John Nash is toshy because these are the only person out there
[00:51:22] They're understood that how humans interact it on a strategic level independently from one another
[00:51:28] But also
[00:51:29] At a system together at the same time, and you know, that's all about the Nash equilibrium
[00:51:34] That's about so
[00:51:36] You're like a kind of a super dumb but just like a really good podcast question
[00:51:43] Yeah
[00:51:45] For one for me to ask or like the answer. No, I'm gonna ask you. I'm gonna ask you okay
[00:51:49] Okay, I want you to think about this it's just a good it's like a great talk about you podcast question
[00:51:54] Okay, you ready? Okay, okay
[00:51:58] Two part two parts the first one
[00:52:06] This is easy
[00:52:08] Do you believe stoichi is still alive today?
[00:52:13] depends on if it's John Nash well right, okay, but like you know obviously how
[00:52:20] Obviously knew that person was he died no because
[00:52:24] No, no no for either
[00:52:27] No person is that selfless or
[00:52:30] No because it's not a person it's multiple. It's an error. I think it's collective anyway, right?
[00:52:35] All right, so then let's say let's let's fast forward to part B
[00:52:41] Let's say that stoichi is alive and it is a single person
[00:52:47] And they come back with your refutable evidence that they are in fact stoichi
[00:52:55] Because you're right no person is that selfless. It's finally after X years I mean
[00:52:59] We're whatever they're like lost the key is that's the only way they hailed this long
[00:53:03] Yeah, they came back and they're like I am he
[00:53:06] And this is where we should be moving forward, okay? Is that a decade?
[00:53:10] About 10 years yeah, is that a nap positive or a net negative for
[00:53:15] Definitely negative absolutely a negative which is why oh wild though like the leaderless movement
[00:53:22] That's the whole point. It's a leaderless movement
[00:53:25] That's why Ethereum in this in this white
[00:53:29] I believe is weaker because there is a front man the talik yeah, now he's not the feet doesn't control it
[00:53:37] No, but his name isn't his paper, but he's up there dictating the the road map
[00:53:43] You know and there are people like that the core devs maintainers like there are similarities in there in the Bitcoin world too
[00:53:49] But not to the same degree and so yeah, I think it would be really bad for Bitcoin and psychotouchy reappeared
[00:53:55] Um
[00:53:58] It would sort of call into question like
[00:54:02] Will they like become the controller?
[00:54:05] Right and then it would also like the big question a psychotic at a dump like a million coins in the market like
[00:54:12] But actually nobody they don't have to have the big coins are attributed to Satoshi right now
[00:54:16] We even know Jameson Lop who's coming on the whose episode on the podcast to be out soon
[00:54:21] Um, he wrote a article about this called the Potosci pattern and so we don't actually know how many
[00:54:29] There's not that many coins that we know with certainty are Satoshi's but there's roughly like a million coins that we think
[00:54:37] Arsatoshi's based on some
[00:54:40] Honestly like I'm not even gonna try to explain it because it's like I'd butcher it
[00:54:43] But Jameson Lop has a great article about it. So if you're really topic it's called the Potosci Potosci pattern
[00:54:48] P-A-T Potosci pattern
[00:54:51] Yeah, I'm not talking to you to post that in the notes of this so people can take a look is that that's yeah
[00:54:55] It's fascinating me what's that one? What's that website you can go to they can just track like old addresses
[00:55:01] Like it literally just gives them much of search functions where it's like give me Bitcoin wallets that have been inactive for greater than five years
[00:55:13] I figured you know, but that's probably not something you spend a lot of time doing
[00:55:15] I went down when I first got into crypto
[00:55:17] I went down a rabbit hole just like searching that shit up to be yeah, we're in man and how much do they have
[00:55:24] Yeah, maybe it's like Bitcoin rich list
[00:55:27] Could be bit info charts.com. That's what you think of bit info charts
[00:55:34] Here I got it
[00:55:36] Share screen or not to a share presentation you can out. I don't care is it presentation?
[00:55:42] I
[00:55:44] Got to upgrade my plane
[00:55:47] Bitcoin rich list here it is this thing, right?
[00:55:51] Yep. That's what I was thinking of yeah, so there's like
[00:55:57] 98% of the supply is owned by wallets that have point one or more
[00:56:03] or no no
[00:56:08] 80 yeah, 83% of the supply is owned by wallets that have 10% or
[00:56:16] Yeah, 93% of the supply is owned by wallets that have one Bitcoin or more on it yeah
[00:56:24] And buy all dude and 40% is owned by wallets that have a thousand or more Bitcoin on it
[00:56:30] Which are mostly exchange addresses
[00:56:34] But there's a lot of people's that have over a hundred thousand
[00:56:38] There are only four addresses that have over a hundred thousand by an ant bit finax by an ants and whatever this one is
[00:56:46] 119,000 on this address damn guys I forgot unless we're just to share this one
[00:56:55] Don't look at that address
[00:56:57] That's well yeah
[00:57:02] I didn't know charts yeah, I'm gonna have to I'm supposed to time go there. It's really a fun exercise because you can look at like
[00:57:12] Yeah, you know, the actions from dormant Bitcoin addresses
[00:57:16] Yeah, you can see shit like I didn't do anything for last eight years and then he moved 25 Bitcoin to this account
[00:57:22] I like yeah
[00:57:24] Yeah, I mean it's a toast you came back. I think that would it would definitely shake things up
[00:57:30] Yeah, I don't I don't personally think it would be like the death now to Bitcoin
[00:57:37] If it happened like five years ago, might yeah, it goes a little I think it's a bit just I don't know
[00:57:43] One of my biggest concerns about Bitcoin today is the hash rate and the government regulation not even like them coming down on altcoins
[00:57:49] But nationalizing the hash rate
[00:57:52] because
[00:57:54] If Bitcoin is the reserve currency in the future
[00:57:58] Now there's a political incentive to
[00:58:00] Nationalize the ability to produce it yeah, and
[00:58:04] Sorry, I'm an endomain bro
[00:58:07] All your marathon miners are now arbs here will give you some
[00:58:12] Treasuries for them like you know like so I do wonder if like if there was a like you know game of like hash rate accumulation like Jason
[00:58:22] In his software book theorizes could it hurt I wonder like
[00:58:28] If the big miners hurt at risk of you know nationalization
[00:58:34] Yeah, those are shareholders the problem is that you know
[00:58:38] The worst run business in the world is the government and everything so like they were just fucking
[00:58:44] I got to perform by somebody else
[00:58:46] Yeah, they definitely would
[00:58:49] But I don't think anything of what we're discussing right now is something we'll even see in our lifetimes
[00:58:56] But be sure yourself
[00:58:58] They be a moron or a little bit of a million
[00:59:01] And hey, they just as long as you're consciousness, so I wait until you can describe your confidence
[00:59:06] No, that's do that I had a conversation with this about this not too long ago. This guy was like I would like to you know recreate my consciousness
[00:59:15] I was like that sounds awful because it would think it's you but then it would but then it would it would think it's you
[00:59:21] But then it would realize one day that it isn't the real you and
[00:59:24] Holy shit what an existential problem that would be and then it couldn't die so it would be trapped in this like horror
[00:59:30] Then it's not really the real it and forever
[00:59:34] Now I'm good
[00:59:36] I don't want to do and I was like I don't want to do that to myself and he's like well it wouldn't be me
[00:59:40] And I was like but it would think it's you and it would feel like it's you so it would be you basically
[00:59:47] All right, so I got like I got like
[00:59:50] Eight minutes left and then I gotta go
[00:59:52] We spent too much time chatting before we started recording
[00:59:55] But no, no, it's good. It's good. It's good. It's good stuff
[01:00:00] Let me ask you this hypothetical you have spent a
[01:00:05] Large portion of your adult life at least the most recently
[01:00:11] Researching developing thinking about not just Bitcoin but like you know
[01:00:17] acquiring value
[01:00:19] Not being diluted by governments how to do that you have this like institutional knowledge that people are working right now to try to get to the point where you are
[01:00:27] Which is good. It's anything for me just in a different way
[01:00:30] um
[01:00:32] If you had the ability and like the sunset of your life to essentially
[01:00:39] Maybe not your consciousness
[01:00:42] But your knowledge and store that somewhere that could be accessed
[01:00:48] Brie your by your progeny moving forward. Would you do it?
[01:00:51] Really could be like hey man a uncle's Zach or grandpa's Zach or great grandpa's Zach and then
[01:00:58] You have a repository of information that could be accessed by those people
[01:01:02] That could give you like everything you knew up at the point where you died and that was it
[01:01:06] Would you do it? I've thought about this art a lot have you all right cool yeah
[01:01:15] Because then you know Bitcoin thinks makes you think about low time preference and like beyond you know impact beyond your mortal life
[01:01:24] So I've thought like oh, I would be super cool like I'd like be around to like experience like what life would be like
[01:01:29] 100 years and see if the movement like yeah, yeah came for wishing
[01:01:35] And then like yeah, you know I there's this kind of nihilism that sometimes I think about that
[01:01:40] Like isn't it funny that we spend our whole lives
[01:01:43] Like you mean they acknowledge just to like suddenly lose it all
[01:01:47] I don't know it's notice
[01:01:50] Yeah, you're right
[01:01:51] Like with no like you don't even get noticed that like necessarily that you're gonna lose it just
[01:01:55] Boop gone
[01:01:56] This is gone
[01:01:59] And like wouldn't that be cool to be able to like store it forever and like build upon it not if it's start over all over again
[01:02:07] Yeah, and then I think about
[01:02:12] How a forest can't grow without wildfires eventually the soil must
[01:02:20] Be replenished and
[01:02:24] part of me thinks that
[01:02:26] You know there's a beauty in how endings become new beginnings
[01:02:30] Okay, and maybe
[01:02:35] It's not up to me to decide
[01:02:38] And maybe I'm interfering beyond the scope of what I should be interfering and meddling with
[01:02:44] by trying to
[01:02:47] Force something that isn't supposed to be yeah so given that
[01:02:52] All things
[01:02:55] Our temporary the earth itself
[01:02:58] It's not been hospitable forever and it won't be hospitable forever. Yeah,
[01:03:03] Nor were our solar system or will our whole universe
[01:03:08] so
[01:03:10] Given that endings are
[01:03:14] An essential part of existence
[01:03:17] And that beginnings are rooted in them as I've gotten older. I've started to wonder if maybe
[01:03:25] Nyevily I thought that would be a good idea
[01:03:28] But in fact that the nature of things is to end and then start a new
[01:03:34] And they're supposed to be that way so
[01:03:37] I don't know. I don't have a clear cut answer on that, but I think that's where I'm leaning
[01:03:41] I would like to in the time that I have left instill
[01:03:45] What knowledge and values and
[01:03:48] Experiences that I can into the world and that's exactly why I post content online
[01:03:53] So that like it is immortal
[01:03:55] You know, I mean as immortal as a YouTube is at least
[01:03:58] But like yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't need to be immortal
[01:04:03] But the ideas that I put out in the world can exist in digital form even if you know I don't
[01:04:12] Right kind of how I feel yeah
[01:04:14] Like that that's very
[01:04:16] Altruistic non-ego centric way of viewing that
[01:04:20] I will say there's an element of this because now I've put out thousands of hours of work just like you have
[01:04:24] And I'm like they'd be kind of funny even though I have a five month old daughter
[01:04:27] If I were to die she could go watch thousands of hours of me talking and might not mean anything to her
[01:04:32] But she can idea about who I was it would it will
[01:04:36] Yeah, it would mean a lot because that would be all she would get to know you from so yeah
[01:04:41] It would be everything in that regard. So why did yeah? I mean I just am so much but the
[01:04:47] Sailor sailors mouth
[01:04:50] Mathematicians brain but sailors mouth that's right because you see I don't the point where words or words and intention matters more than definition of words
[01:04:58] And that's how he lives I do I do think intention is more important
[01:05:03] So it was a lavish relationship with the swear words because when I say things
[01:05:06] I don't mean them with malice. I just like the words I like to say them they slap
[01:05:11] Yeah
[01:05:14] The yeah, I don't know man. I don't have my mind made up on that but I do think that there's
[01:05:21] Like the older I get the more I try to not resist
[01:05:25] Yeah, and I just accept the nature of life as it is and appreciate if for what it is
[01:05:32] Yeah, I don't know if that's just me like trying to find comfort and like the mortality that I'm facing
[01:05:40] I mean, I'm a military. I'm not even like that old but I'm trying to get ahead of it because like I don't want to
[01:05:48] Hit me like a ton of bricks in my 60s or something and I think that the sooner that
[01:05:56] Someone can take a
[01:06:00] Non-attachment outlook on life from both their experiences with a possess even if that possession is knowledge
[01:06:08] It's not even like physical thing like
[01:06:10] The love that you know like the non-attachment aspect. I think will
[01:06:16] Bring peace and people's lives and it certainly has for me. I like that
[01:06:27] Like the
[01:06:29] Good contemplative thought like
[01:06:35] And just appreciate in the ride, you know like I wanted to
[01:06:38] Pick when to go to infinity and just like live the flashy like a high life and flying private jets and all like when I first got into it
[01:06:47] It's ironically like I actually like getting into Bitcoin and it going up makes me realize that don't want those things
[01:06:53] I mean, oh, you know like I'll do it. Oh my gosh, like if Bitcoin is million dollars like
[01:06:59] They'll be a picture of me on golf stream
[01:07:01] But like
[01:07:05] Don't worry, but you know, it's like that's not gonna bring me lasting happiness
[01:07:09] No, and it's yeah, and it's temporary. I mean anything is temporary like life is
[01:07:15] Even like having you know a family getting married having kids like
[01:07:20] You know like you've had multiple kids like there's nothing like your first child
[01:07:24] And it's not that you'd love your second child any less
[01:07:26] But the newness of like the experience of being a parent for the first time or like falling in love for the first time
[01:07:33] Like all of these things and you know and and something my friend asked me well
[01:07:39] Because we were talking someone thing about this and he was like was what you know if that's the case and like okay, Mr. Munk
[01:07:45] Like
[01:07:46] Well by Bitcoin
[01:07:48] It's gonna end right and I was like yes
[01:07:52] It will
[01:07:53] Because on a long enough time horizon
[01:07:56] Material wealth like when there's such abundance
[01:08:01] There's no need to transact
[01:08:03] value because abundance is everywhere
[01:08:06] So yeah money won exist in a long enough time frame
[01:08:09] Because of true abundance, but yeah, I mean until that Isaac has some of story
[01:08:15] Yeah the last question last question. I mean essentially it shows that that's what I'm really like
[01:08:21] Kind of influenced by and when I think that and as like you know it may be a long long time
[01:08:28] But again tomorrow is rooted in today and we're not gonna be there tomorrow
[01:08:34] Although that is something that I would like to see humanity get to eventually
[01:08:38] I would love to see us be in a world where we don't need money because
[01:08:44] Abundance is everywhere and it is when you look for it. Yeah, no, you're right
[01:08:51] All right, let's make it fine. You find what you see no doubt and we've
[01:08:59] It's all part of the part of the path that discovery and I think we've got a little bit existential here
[01:09:03] But I think it's worth conversation because this stuff all pulls together
[01:09:06] I just think most people don't actually view this stuff on that level
[01:09:10] But at the same time like I think you just end up there. I'm not saying like we're having a 401 conversation and instead there's like one-oh one listeners
[01:09:18] But like I think everyone eventually ends up there
[01:09:21] Because yeah, you know being a parent. I've never had anything more fulfilling in my life
[01:09:25] I've tell the story of it because I'm super proud of my son we were watching
[01:09:29] Conto
[01:09:31] This morning he got up at six period. He was like I want to watch him conto and I was like all right
[01:09:35] I put it on the joy of life
[01:09:37] There's a scene like wake up one-oh watching conto
[01:09:40] I think that's weird, but I right and there's a scene at the beginning and I remember the great name
[01:09:44] I think the Antonio he like gets his gift and he can like talk to animals. Have you seen the movie?
[01:09:48] Oh no, okay. I've seen I've know what it's about though. Yeah, so like he gets just like gift whatever and he talked to animals and
[01:09:55] This like big jungle cat comes out and like he goes for a ride on his cat
[01:09:59] I'm sitting there with my son. He's five years old, okay? And I go is that because it has like spots and I go that a leopard or a cheetah
[01:10:07] Right with this me goes it's a Jaguar and
[01:10:11] I was like what and I googled it
[01:10:15] It was a Jaguar and I was like
[01:10:19] And he asked him later because the spots man the spots are different on a Jaguar or the white you know white yeah, yeah
[01:10:26] And I was like what?
[01:10:28] Like I just got absolutely schooled by my son
[01:10:30] And I remember the rest of my life because it was like literally
[01:10:34] It dropped me to the floor that he would 100% count as looked at me like I was a dipshit was like
[01:10:40] It's a Jaguar and I'm like oh
[01:10:45] Did this is like why people make mistakes in trading like I'm gonna tie it back to here or somehow
[01:10:52] Yeah
[01:10:53] Because when you are focused on the wrong things in life
[01:10:57] You let money and your love of money and wealth and material possessions drive your motive your actions
[01:11:03] Which cause emotional mistakes in investing
[01:11:08] When you have your priorities right and you recognize that family
[01:11:14] health
[01:11:16] Your faith if that's something that's important to you when you recognize what is important in life
[01:11:22] You don't make those seams
[01:11:25] You know foolish decisions with the power of hindsight. You don't buy
[01:11:29] You know empty your bank account at the top of the market in Debitcoin because you don't value wealth the same way
[01:11:37] So you don't need to chase it exactly and at the same time when it's crashing
[01:11:42] When you're focused on the things that really matter to you you don't fear this level of you don't feel this level of fear
[01:11:49] That's just all
[01:11:50] Consuming where you can't buy any more so you puke and sell in fact
[01:11:55] You say you know what I've got everything I need right here that'll get me through
[01:12:01] So that's by the dip baby like yeah
[01:12:05] Those those then this is why I was like taking it in this direction because I don't think people realize that like if you want to be a good
[01:12:13] Investor if you want to be tackled the crypto markets you need to first tackle your own mind
[01:12:19] And because if you can't do that you are going to lose
[01:12:24] You're gonna get outplayed and out-traded by people like Mr. Jared who have already mastered that part
[01:12:33] So so it's true the the reason why I've done well the jungle is where the efforts on jack-hop
[01:12:40] It was not part of me. It was just like oh, this is cool and I could do it emotionally emotionally
[01:12:45] That was it but you're right. Yeah, do jungle jackware. Let's do it
[01:12:49] Teachers you about yourself you learn the jungle will eat you up or you learn to survive
[01:12:55] You know no doubt speaking of that that five-year-old boy after we get in school so I gotta go
[01:13:00] But this was fun man appreciate you popping on I'm gonna get this out here hopefully the next day
[01:13:07] And I'm looking forward to your conversation with Mr. Lop can you tell the people how they would hear that as well?
[01:13:15] Yeah, probably come out in May
[01:13:17] You can visit the podcast website. It's value stack dot XYZ
[01:13:25] Stack and value
[01:13:27] Like that youtube dot com slash at value stack Twitter at value stack pod
[01:13:33] Search it on any podcast platform values stack podcast to find it and
[01:13:39] Yeah, Jamesons is gonna be about the history of email how it kind of got centralized from a protocol
[01:13:45] SMTP into a
[01:13:49] Service that basically Gmail now offers right and a few other major providers
[01:13:53] So how did the protocol become an a service by company?
[01:13:57] What mistakes were made along that?
[01:14:00] trajectory over the last two decades and how did we get there? Yeah, and then what cautionary tales can that tell for Bitcoin
[01:14:07] To make sure that we're not going down that same path
[01:14:11] Interesting
[01:14:13] So that'll be coming out. Yeah, it's gonna be a good episode
[01:14:16] I was I Jameson also wrote like a long-term blog about it, but this was the first time you talked about our podcast and
[01:14:23] In this meet in that format so excited to get that out value stack pod if you're just subscribed
[01:14:28] But before you subscribe to my podcast better hit that subscribe for crypto parable
[01:14:33] Appreciate that do yeah, I do a horrible job of throwing them out stuff. So yeah, please I do too
[01:14:38] I follow all that good stuff. I hope you come back
[01:14:41] Zach I don't make it never come back
[01:14:43] Don't you dare click subscribe that might be a better strategy. You know because this guy
[01:14:47] What I saw gone YouTube he was like at the end of every video. He's like I swear if you subscribe
[01:14:54] I'm not making another video and just like he's like totally
[01:14:58] Completely off the wall with it and I was like bro subscribe
[01:15:06] I thought it was cool. It was creative and clever and I don't know the subscribe
[01:15:10] No, no, no, yeah, all right. We'll thank you for having me on yeah absolutely go check him out
[01:15:16] The DC bat value stack
[01:15:23] Yeah side here things are
[01:15:25] Certain to come around and I feel a little bit better spirits
[01:15:29] Put nuts. We've content with you your your town theater
[01:15:35] Thank you my friend all right, it's pretty easy