SBF Can't stop doing interviews. And he wants you to know. He's guilty. Dead to rights.
Of being a garbage CEO.
[00:00:15] Crypto Parabellum Podcast. Episode 15. I'm hoping that one of these episodes, I'll be able to say, Crypto Parabellum Podcast. The final word on Sam Bacon free to will never speak of him ever fucking again. But I don't think that time's coming anytime soon because, well,
[00:00:39] Dude loves doing interviews, Alan. Yeah, yeah he's definitely going on a bit of a tour the last week. And I think that will probably continue. I don't think we'll be done talking about this for years. I know neither you or I were around in Crypto 4 Mount Gawks,
[00:00:57] but I would imagine it's still gets talked about today. Not all the time. But it gets picked up. Enough that I know about it and I shouldn't, like I know granular details when I've never really tried to. And so this will be the same.
[00:01:10] We'll be talking about this eight years from now. I'm sure of it. Yeah, you're probably right. So we wanted to jump on here obviously Joel isn't with us this week. He'll be back next week. But you Sam has done a litany of interviews.
[00:01:26] He did a phone interview, which I listened to. And then obviously he did the Aaron Ross, Sarkon interview yesterday. Aaron Ross Sarkon from CNBC, but also the co-creator to billions. Co-creator of billions, the show, which is a good show.
[00:01:39] At least it was for a couple seasons and then kind of deteriorated. But he's like a popular guy and gets a lot of these big interviews. I don't even remember what the event was that they agreed. It's called Dilbo. Okay, what's that?
[00:01:50] So I, well, okay, now you just put me on spot. Yeah, but no, you know, no, I don't know. I believe Dilbook is something like a speaker series that he put on. I think he's like the creator of it.
[00:02:03] I don't think that Aaron Ross or can do it. Okay. I think it's some deal that he has with the New York Times. Got it. Okay. That makes sense. So yeah, he had this series in the stands.
[00:02:12] Like there was a bunch of interviews yesterday and obviously Sam was one of them. So I just got done watching it at 1.5x speed. And I said to you before we came on here like you're going to have to drive this because all I did was get angry
[00:02:25] while I was listening to that because there's a lot of things. We're going to go through line by line and hopefully I'll mark these as chapters. So people can just kind of go to like, well, what do you say about this? So they can just click to it.
[00:02:35] We can read it and then people can kind of go through and get our opinions on it. But I don't think like from all the things that he's tweeted, said, interviewed, put in print, put in media, whatever.
[00:02:48] Maybe like apparently his idea is let me show everybody how incompetent I was as an executive and that'll make everything better. This is just gross and competence. So it's very clear to me from a legal perspective.
[00:03:05] He is trying to create the defense of gross and competence versus fraud and crime. And quite frankly, he's got two parents who are legal professors and he's doing a good job because quite frankly
[00:03:17] I have never heard of anyone that was as big of a fucking moron as Sam Bacon Fried was in running his company. So I'm going to sign it up that way as what I've taken out of everything he said.
[00:03:29] Now, maybe he's smart and so much as he's making himself just sound like the dumbest person on earth. So maybe that's just a big game and I'm falling for it.
[00:03:36] But really I would not be the person who'd run out there and be like, hey, you guys want to know what a dipshit I am here. Let me tell you when that's what he's doing right now. So anyway, Alan, what did you think?
[00:03:47] I'm almost supposed to follow that up. I will take a softer approach as someone that is deeply involved in running a crypto business that is not nearly as successful or large or serious as, oh, oh, oh, who's more successful now? Well, yeah, now. What's the, there you go.
[00:04:08] FTX was it's hard and so I may be too a fault have a soft spot for operators. Maybe specifically in this space because I know how difficult it can be. And I think it's easy to Monday morning quarterback and say, he had no idea what he was doing.
[00:04:26] Maybe maybe you're right. But I don't believe that. I have no idea what he was doing. I believe that in hindsight it's easy to pick out a few areas of failure and say, how could you not focus on that? I get it. Like he made mistakes.
[00:04:44] I'm not playing defense. I'm just saying that I don't think he's a complete idiot is my opinion. I don't think you FTX get to the size that it is by being a complete idiot. I think you can make big mistakes without being a complete idiot in general.
[00:05:02] But anyways, I yeah, I what I did was I and shout out to my wife on this one because I watched the interview live. It was at 5 p.m. So my wife is very pregnant right now.
[00:05:14] She's going to be having a baby any time and she spent a lot of time making dinner. And I come down stairs and I'm like, hey, I have to watch this interview.
[00:05:21] So we sit down to make this to eat this dinner in the my wife made and I put my laptop on the island and we watch together. So thank you shout out to my wife for putting up with weird crypto stuff 247.
[00:05:33] But and I took notes throughout the whole thing of the points that I thought were either new, interesting or not common knowledge. He's as a information that we got here that maybe we didn't get from other places. To where other interviews.
[00:05:50] So I'll start with one of the you first question, I'm going to be looking over to the side here to my notes pretty often Andrew starts the very first question. He talks about the fact that he received tons of letters, emails, etc.
[00:06:06] From presumably clients of FTX is leading up to this interview and he reads one of them and basically this person describes that they lost their life savings on FTX. They don't say whether that was FTX international FTX or US, but they say it was $2 million.
[00:06:21] And their question was, Sam, why did you commit fraud and why did you loan your hedge fund $10 million? And so Andrew poses the question this way to Sam just the way that it's written.
[00:06:33] And Sam says well there are two situations and I don't know which situation you're in. There's FTX US and there's FTX international. Sam's response that he believes that FTX US is fully backed and there's no reason why those depositors couldn't be made whole right now.
[00:06:53] And he doesn't understand why it was locked. And I thought that that was an interesting point because if you remember, as we're going through the drama, FTX international did pause withdrawals FTX US did not for some period of time. But they eventually did.
[00:07:09] But there was some period of time where they did not and so I think it's my opinion that he's right here. I think that FTX US is fully backed and those depositors, if they are treated separately, will receive their money back.
[00:07:25] Now I'm not an expert in bankruptcy law. I'm not really an expert in any law. I don't think that's a very good thing. But I don't know whether the creditors in this case US and international get lumped together.
[00:07:37] I don't know if that happens then there will be an abad outcome undeniably for the US customer. So that's where he starts it off. Then Andrew asks about the co-mingling of funds.
[00:07:54] So in that letter that I started with or Andrew started with, the user copian paced it the terms of service.
[00:08:02] Whereas and I won't quote it specifically but there's terms of service that say, your funds will not be or not owned by or not lent to FTX trading digital or whatever the entity was.
[00:08:15] And so his question is like how, how did you lose customer funds if in our terms of service? It says that you can't. And Sam answered this exact way that I would have and I've actually been wondering why he has an answer to this way in the past.
[00:08:33] And what he says is, so yes, it does say that in the user terms. In other places of the user terms and other places of the platform, users have the ability to opt into a lending program.
[00:08:47] You might be familiar with what this looks like on the platform, you could take your asset and you would see an hourly rates that the platform was paying.
[00:08:57] And they they showed that in an annual APY format for sort of easy use but the term loan was always an hour. You could take it out and an hour later you get your money back.
[00:09:08] And so Sam said yes, it does say that we won't do that in the terms of service, but if you as a user opt into that lending that borrow lending. Aspect of the platform, you're not lending your funds.
[00:09:21] So I'm curious on your opinion, I think I have some but I'm curious on your opinion to that. Yes sir. So there's a couple of things that both of the first two questions. Let me give you my cynical is hell.
[00:09:36] I believe people are innately scumbags and I believe that people will do what they need to do to enrich themselves and set themselves up. The best way possible answer, okay.
[00:09:48] The first thing you said was Sam came in to say I believe FTX US customers are whole, okay, that's all there. So if you have political buddies. If you are US citizen and you don't really have fear for criminal prosecution and said the US.
[00:10:12] What I would make sure is look, I did everything I said I was going to do to protect US customer funds. I cannot help because even goes on later, I'm sure you're going to get there.
[00:10:21] If you circumvented the KYC rules to go to FTX.com and your US citizen, you weren't supposed to that wasn't me. So that is all there. It was all one to one. We were following regulation when I sat down with Gary Gensler.
[00:10:33] I did everything I said it was going to do and it's all ready to go. The second part was that really nice insulation of, well yes, it did say that but it also said this.
[00:10:45] It reminds me of an episode or a series of episodes from another air in Sork and not air in Ross Sork and the West wire. I'm sorry, in the West Wing.
[00:10:56] In the West Wing there is a whole story arc about how Jed Bartlett had multiple sclerosis and didn't disclose it. And they're talking to the White House Council and you're going to go, why are you talking about this, Jared?
[00:11:08] Well, it's because there's an episode in there where they talk about how, man, I tell you what. It looks like the president set up everything that you would do if you were trying to perpetrate a fraud and get away with it.
[00:11:21] And so when I hear Sam say, well yeah, but I insulated that US customers, after everybody else.
[00:11:27] Yes, there was the we will not lend your funds but we did have this over here which you may or may not have understood and if you ever checked into a once it was there.
[00:11:35] It sounds to me like he did everything he possibly could do to give himself a legal out to be like, whoa whoa whoa, you did your own thing.
[00:11:43] So when I hear those things yes, I didn't know that was possible but literally I was like boy this dude is not dumb.
[00:11:48] I say he's a trash to you, which he obviously was but like the thing that every time he answers and the way he answers and I was like this dude was literally putting and building blocks to protect himself.
[00:11:59] The whole way and I'm going to push back to you because I know you're going to drive in the joy to this episode, but like even the way that communicate internally these conversations were all set to erase okay so there are no internal communications they're all deleted.
[00:12:10] The guy literally set up step after step and contingency after contingency to make sure he had the oh well fuck here and I don't know defense and he's done it beautifully.
[00:12:20] So if you want to take that side, I actually think there's a better defense that doesn't involve any any speculation so just to that one point where his answer is.
[00:12:31] The reason we lost funds is because users were participating in this borrow that is voluntary you didn't have to do that but whether you did that or whether you didn't do that the outcomes of the same for all users right now.
[00:12:43] So so if you wanted to argue that I just don't think that the user terms is a good argument because some users did opt into lending some did not they're both in the same scenario right now,
[00:12:57] but do you know if you were auto and roll or do you know if you are not auto and roll, you are auto not and you were what's your head to opt you had to opt in yes, okay.
[00:13:05] But so I almost think it's a move point because I almost asked this on Twitter, but I didn't think I'd get a good answer, so I deleted it. I what amount of funds were in the lending pool.
[00:13:18] Yeah, I don't know I don't think anybody could know right now unless you had like screenshots right before it happened, but I don't think it matters it wasn't everybody and so I don't think this point matters,
[00:13:30] but I do think his answer is relevant and realistic and true in this case. Some users opted into lending their money that comes with risk, so anyways, that's not only opinion on this. So real quick follow him then we can go on it.
[00:13:45] I'm not trying to believe this is a point. Do you think that's a set up to say well look it's not that they couldn't have been lent against we just thought there were firewalls in place and there were safe.
[00:13:55] There was the reason why there was the ability to take loans is because this program existed we just didn't audit how much was being loaned appropriate.
[00:14:04] I don't know like that's not the issue the issue is the collateral to the loans went bad, so the loans in theory were fine they had collateral they just had bad collateral.
[00:14:16] Yeah and so like that's the issue it's not that I loaned I guess you could argue they loaned too much because they treated the collateral as more valuable than it was.
[00:14:25] Yeah and they are so I'll let you keep building the bring her to keep going yeah so I just noted to myself here that after he asks the question about coping going with funds and Sam gives the answer that someone could have opted into the the bar of lend.
[00:14:38] And it's clear to me that at this point Andrew Ross Sorcan which by the way side note I don't trust anybody with a hyphenated last name Sam Bankman freed Andrew Ross Sorcan I think if you have a hyphenated last name. I generally don't trust you.
[00:14:53] Anyways not take yes sorry there's so many listening who has a hyphenated last name who just got like absolutely sideswiped by anyway. I stand by I stand by that.
[00:15:05] So I just noted to myself that clearly Andrew doesn't know the FTX platform very well because the natural next question in my mind is saying okay hey some users opted into lending what was the total amount that people opted into was it.
[00:15:20] Was it the was it this eight billion dollar hole that you have if the answer is yes okay cool and if not why because that would have a dug a layered deeper on that and then I think it would have potentially.
[00:15:32] Potentially exposed fraud or yeah would have exposed more gross mismanagement but because he didn't know enough move down to the next question.
[00:15:42] Yeah, I'm quite frankly I'll give you the same answer right now because that is watching interview well air and you know obviously this all falls on me and I should have known better and like I've got there were some failings here that I should have done and I don't really know and I don't have those details in front of me because I'm not part of the process anymore but you know that's something I should have had my head on anyway what you next question.
[00:16:00] That's exactly what it would have said the guys been doing at the entire time anyway keep going. Yeah so the the next question.
[00:16:07] I'm just looking here and you ask about Caroline's public comment that they used client funds to cover the loans of Alameda that were called from other platforms she claimed that she was aware of this Gary was aware of this and Sam was aware of this.
[00:16:22] So you may be asking yourself one did Caroline say that this was an internal conversation where Caroline was talking on a video conference to either Alameda employees or FTEx employees I'm not sure of the details there and Sam says that. So the best of his knowledge.
[00:16:40] The baro desks close down earlier this year that's true we know that. Genesis took losses to three hours capital block fights of classes Celsius took losses the majority of crypto lending desks closed down and so what you says here is that when that happened.
[00:16:57] Alameda transferred all of their borrowing that they used to do on other desks they transferred that inside to FTEx FTEx became the biggest baro lending desk basically and so that's what he thinks that she means in this case.
[00:17:10] I'm not going to argue whether that's accurate or inaccurate but that's his answer Andrew moves on to ask about the connections between Alameda and FTEx he says hey you've given our interviews to Bloomberg is the one that he sites.
[00:17:25] You claimed that you weren't really involved in Alameda anymore but didn't you guys like live together in this penthouse it's like been talked about pretty extensively.
[00:17:36] And I felt the interesting part here is Sam said I did live with Alameda one or two of Alameda employees one of them we know was Caroline I'd be interested to know.
[00:17:46] Who the other was he and he said yes like we we did live together but an important part that was new is said I don't live there anymore.
[00:17:55] And then he said I'm not there right now and so he he said three different things he said we live together okay got it.
[00:18:02] I don't live there anymore but then immediately said I'm not there right now and this stock out to me because of it boy who you may be familiar with was in the Bahamas this last week went to the penthouse stood underneath the penthouse and sort of yelled up at the windows and he found what appeared to be SFF's car and we know this because SFF's car which was a Toyota camera.
[00:18:24] Oh, Carola excuse me yes you're right sorry. Toyota Corolla was featured in previous videos there was a laptop a box of a laptop sitting in the car.
[00:18:37] A a canister what do you call that a prescription pill bottle with some white pills cut in half which people believed to be some type of like. What's the word for it stimulant.
[00:18:52] Yeah and so that's why you'd cut those in half because you're doing smaller doses so it's weird that he said I don't live there anymore because his car was there a couple days ago at minimum.
[00:19:04] And Bip boy also mentioned that he saw curtains moving around when he was yelling up. And then he immediately corrected himself instead I'm not there now so I thought he may be got caught in a little bit of something right there. Yeah maybe.
[00:19:16] So then Andrew asks about the wires to Alameda he says hey people were wiring money to Alameda to get credited on FTX why why was this I thought Sam's answer here was potentially plausible so he says that yeah he says that well when F. Alameda existed before FTX.
[00:19:36] Alameda had plenty of bank accounts when FTX was created we had a hard time getting bank accounts I can understand that it is hard for crypto companies especially exchanges abroad to get good banking access and so he said when we didn't have bank accounts and customers were asking us to be able to wire funds in.
[00:19:55] We're like hey why don't we just use the Alameda accounts as soon as money hits the Alameda accounts will move it into the FTX accounts will credit the accounts.
[00:20:03] We shouldn't have been doing that for very long we did it sort of as like a stock gap it sort of wasn't a problem we stopped paying attention to it we forgot about it I think that's a plausible answer.
[00:20:15] I thought so too because it allows you to ramp up your business while you're trying to get the bank accounts set up right so it'd be like hey why are you not an Alameda will credit back if you want to request condos while wire you back out throughout the Alameda like that's not unreasonable to me what I found interesting about that answer though was he said.
[00:20:32] Aaron Aaron Sorcan Aaron Ross Orkin Andrew Aaron Andrew Andrew Andrew Andrew Andrew Andrew Andrew. Andrew Sorcan said. So you were able to circumvent KYC.
[00:20:49] He misunderstood yes he did yeah and in Sam quickly followed I was it no you still had to follow the same KYC procedure is get your account on FTX if you do that.
[00:21:00] I'm curious if they had a hundred percent if they didn't like yeah you can get in like that like I don't know if that information will ever come out or not because you would see like all right well just credit your account let me know you are like.
[00:21:11] I mean there would be curious if they did that. There was no I not that I'm aware of so there was the time when you could have an FTX international account with no KYC and I believe you had some sort of which all.
[00:21:25] What is there restrictions it was like 8,000 a day that it became 2,000 a day but but those are crypto which all's anything that had to do with a bank or wire required KYC always that I could not I can remember and especially in the last two years or whatever whenever they crack down on KYC.
[00:21:42] So I don't think that the wires to alameda is actually a scandalous as people think I think that fair enough I think that's it's possible look of all the students that were committed I don't think that's a serious one.
[00:21:54] I don't think I don't think that's a big one I do think it allowed like what I think happened there and we're going to get into this is.
[00:22:02] I don't even know the end of the interview he was like you know I was focused on going to the business and not as focused on compliance as I initially had men.
[00:22:10] And so while it's plausible they did but they did I think everybody would look at that go hey man like you can't do that anymore like you got to stop it's one of those things that is forgivable it's a bad business practice as you're getting started but then once you become a statlet which I think we would all agree FTX was fairly well established.
[00:22:30] You stop doing that right like you stop allowing that so my point here is from a compliance he perspective.
[00:22:36] Those rails of credit and debit back and forth were never severed and they should have been and that's what them just being lazy I'm not saying criminally lazy but I think it was.
[00:22:48] And it just again it's a like well what's just the there because it gives us this back door which is whatever but he's referring to because there's a way to cross credit and now they have a plausible reason to say well it's from before we never really meant to do we were there was just evidence back and forth and me Sam as CEO I should have known that it was as bad as it was unless skeptical about that piece so the the back door I think is actually something different I think.
[00:23:15] And we can talk about it isn't he said it isn't like explicitly said not in this interview but in the phone when he did two days ago that that was not a thing I don't even know how to code which is always.
[00:23:25] But okay, so not not to go too off topic but if you know anyone I'm sure a lot of people missed that it didn't that specific phone interview it didn't get that much traction it didn't get that much sort of play.
[00:23:37] In that interview I believe that he skirted that question by the way that he was worded so that journalist I don't remember her name. I'm sorry she's not really journalist actually I'm so it's a sound of like she wasn't in journalist so yeah she's she's not a journalist she asked the question incorrectly she and and she said like hey I read something that you coded this back door and that gave him an opening to say I don't know how to code I didn't code that back door that's not the assertion that she should have made the assertion that she should have made was that Gary coded a back door at your request.
[00:24:07] Then he would have had a hard time scurrying that question so I don't think that this element of wire issue is the same as that or no okay I don't think so.
[00:24:16] I think it's easy like they said something up years ago that works they moved on to other things they stopped focusing on something that worked they're like hey we don't need to pay attention to that it works I'm going to focus on something that's broken.
[00:24:27] Okay, so Andrew then later asks.
[00:24:31] If they say he said hey Sam you're in the Bahamas are you allowed to come to the United States and Sam says to my knowledge I am and Andrew asks have you thought about coming to the United States states and Sam says I have thought about that.
[00:24:45] He says my understanding is that there's probably going to be some hearings that I will be requested to be at I will need to and will be in the US for those so.
[00:24:56] No normal I didn't take anything away from that it's just this is the first time anyone that I can remember asked him can you are you allowed to be in the US. Yeah yeah and I think it's interesting to again.
[00:25:09] I think that with his law professor parents he's gone through whether or not he has a case to duck criminal charges I feel like he feels very confident that he can and to me it's kind of a smug like.
[00:25:21] Yeah, no we're good I'll be there you know like one of those like no I'm not worried about that part. Yeah I don't know I didn't get any smugness out of this interview whether it was an act or not.
[00:25:35] Let's assume before a moment that it wasn't act did a great job let's assume for a second moment that it wasn't an act. Thank you saying the right things. I hate to take that sort of side.
[00:25:47] Yeah I mean it's not going to be any friends but just my opinion. I'm not going to say that I wouldn't you know if I if I was at the helm of a massive failure in fraud I'm not going to say that I wouldn't say these things.
[00:26:01] That would because I'd be trying to duck jail time and trying to do everything I can you know like.
[00:26:06] Yeah I think of the day you're you and you get a protect you everybody looks at number one by the way I had a so I've a stream that lot of you guys probably don't know about but I have a stream where I talk about TA and like in March.
[00:26:16] March of this year I didn't go find the clip March of this year somebody that I that watches my show brought it out and sent it to me and was like and you know March of this year you remember when you were talking about Elon and Sam and I was like.
[00:26:26] I mean he's like you said something like Sam in Elon both struck me as a kind of person who were just like abject pure utilitarian where it's like the ends justify the means no matter whoever gives hurt and like I wanted to build this thing and I don't really care what corners I have to cut because even said it in the interview ultimately my thing is doing this and that's what I care about most and he didn't set it in this interview and I'm like God he is the pure utilitarian he is.
[00:26:50] In my opinion the type of attitude that Sam possesses in continues can be is the exact type of the exact way that Naziism became a thing right well if we just kill all the people we don't like that eventually will all be great together so like if I just keep back and rob some people eventually.
[00:27:10] The utopia will be amazing so who cares we could turn along the way I believe and he's even kind of alluded to that himself that he's like yeah, I'm pure utilitarian. That's what I care about most and just five means.
[00:27:20] Okay, I am not aware of any time where he alluded to being that or saying oh yeah when I'll find it not long ago. Not not one's from the past two days but within the past couple weeks.
[00:27:34] So I've only become I don't even remember what the word is anymore something what what is the description of it sorry, It's just like pure utilitarianism so like what's the title that you gave him a second ago.
[00:27:47] Here pure what I think I'm just saying like he just like the but no you just use your task in some utilitarianism yeah, but it's some psychology sort of. What archetype something like that.
[00:28:04] No yes yes the archetypical utilitarian is what I said essentially so that I've never heard that before and I couldn't even spit it out just now but that was covered by Nick Carter I don't know if you know who Nick Carter is.
[00:28:17] He has a crypto podcast called on the brink with castle island he was the psychology major I believe he has his masters in psychology now and now in crypto and he talks he agrees with you he thinks that Sam also aligns with that. Yep, so.
[00:28:33] Okay Andrew then asks. Just looking here okay after which all's were halted.
[00:28:43] Andrew talks about like the hack is basically how it was referred to there was money that left the system after which all's were frozen tell me tell me about that and Sam basically says that my access at that point or previous to that point was cut off so I don't have full visibility into being able to answer this but I can tell you what I think and so.
[00:29:04] And this point I believe that that's accurate because there's a Twitter sort of time stamp on all that that after bankruptcy was filed.
[00:29:13] What's the new guy's name John Ray Ray John something whoever the new CEO is announced that Sam has no no longer has access and then started happening so it's not Sam saying it's Sam's not the only one saying that he didn't have access this guy who doesn't like Sam it's he's the new CEO of FTX US then around guy.
[00:29:33] John Ray whatever is basically saying Sam didn't have access so I think he's telling me to so far here he says I did not full access but here's the way I understood it.
[00:29:42] New information that I did not hear anywhere else he said that he believes the US team. And so I think that's a very interesting thing. I've heard that talk about anywhere I've seen that speculated anywhere.
[00:30:02] My understanding is the only person from FTX US that was sort of like the last man standing his name is Ryan Miller he was the general counsel for FTX US.
[00:30:11] It would be interesting to me if that was Ryan Miller because I know Ryan Miller casually not a friend of mine but I know him I've been in two situations with him where I feel like I've.
[00:30:24] Some ability to judge his character and he operates on the up and up is my personal opinion and so interesting if that did happen and the US team did take custody of some assets.
[00:30:40] And also then said Bahami and regulators took access and it took some of those assets and then there's a third party which he believes was like a hack actually yeah. So any thoughts on that?
[00:30:54] Yeah I do, I do because obviously we all know how easy it is to like move funds if you have access to seed phrases and other things so he would be somebody who would have been in a position to do that that was being Caroline and Gary.
[00:31:09] And so that's that's pretty far oh no there are some spyware somewhere that piece of me got access to they just waited until this crucial moment in the history of FTX actually execute this hack.
[00:31:22] Okay then the actual piece of Bahamas like I'm sorry if I if I can team do be this cynical and I know you're going to be like man you just pay everything negative light like to recap here we talked about how he is.
[00:31:39] Illustrating the point that we did everything possible to protect US people by FTX US and they should have been made whole we were following the guidelines ever put forth for us.
[00:31:50] And so by the way the other place where I am right now the Bahamas are is the other place that we made sure we're not pissed at us.
[00:31:59] And we're complying with them to make sure the best outcome for me to continue unmelested has been satisfied so like yes but the behavior who never said you better get this stuff off okay we did we complied and then the US is good.
[00:32:14] And so it's just very convenient to me that the place where he's a citizen I assume he's still US citizen.
[00:32:21] You know and then also where he lives are the two areas are like no no with the eyes are not at the teams are crossed all the rest of you guys are screwed but like we got these.
[00:32:30] Fair point so the issue that I had with this answer is he's given he's been asked this question twice and he's given what appeared to me to be two different answers one was the one was this one so I'll cover this one first like we just.
[00:32:43] He said the regulators in the Bahamas came to me and said we aren't taking this from you.
[00:32:49] And that was the answer that he gave to Andrew a bit more of like a head-e type answer like a proper regulatory answer the regulators team to me for she use an acronym that I can't recall it's a J something but basically what it sounded like was when they filed for bankruptcy.
[00:33:07] A a regulator in the Bahamas said we basically now have visibility into any money movements that you do. And that was his answer to Andrew is I got to right here under the supervision of a JPL system.
[00:33:22] The Bahamas oversight from the Security Commission of the Bahamas and you know board to my knowledge taking the actions to protect FTA since clients on any customers there.
[00:33:32] So that was his answer to Andrew his answer to the phone call non-journalist lady that we talked about earlier was different his answers are heard didn't talk about this I forgot already the JJS JL JPL what is that you know.
[00:33:49] He didn't mention that at all he basically said we didn't want and I'm paraphrasing we didn't want a bunch of angry locals showing up at our doors. Which is I said that I said that in a tweet I said like my guess.
[00:34:06] What was probably two weeks ago I tweeted that my guess was the reason why they allowed withdrawals locally was they didn't want to mob outside their door.
[00:34:15] And so that's what he said to the citizen journalist I'll call her and he answered the question differently to Andrew so I thought that was something to be skeptical about. Yeah very much so I mean a very very good way.
[00:34:32] To cover your butt and like you know I'm thinking about it there's a handful of rich and motivated people in the Bahamas who just got ripped off by a dude and you know where he lives.
[00:34:43] I mean that's a serious threat to him so you know there are you're taking care of you know yeah so I'll be I think we'll eventually know I mean I think that will be public whether the Bahamas regulator did that or not I think we'll we'll know.
[00:35:00] So Andrew moves on the next part that I thought was worth the news where they were talking about was Andrew asked about the real estate that was in his parents name and this was very very strange.
[00:35:13] I think here's what I assumed before any answer I assumed like here's the non conspiracy thought okay I have parents you have parents. If I become incredibly successful I'm worth 20 billion dollars it wouldn't be that crazy if I buy my parents a house.
[00:35:34] Rapper's doing all the time right like what's what's the difference okay so that's kind of what I figured and he probably bought his parents a house. Now the way he answered this question was very strange to me.
[00:35:45] I think he could have easily said yeah I bought my parents a house like they are selling that house now because that money is going to go back to the company but yeah I bought my parents a house and he could have said that but what he said was.
[00:36:00] He he had a really hard time answering this question he sort of fumbled around a bit and what he said basically was.
[00:36:06] He was in a paraphrasing he wasn't exactly sure why it was structured the way that it was meaning he wasn't sure why his parents were the signers on it.
[00:36:15] It was intended to become company property or how a home that was bought by the company this is not the only home that was bought by the company there were plenty and he addressed this earlier why why are you guys buying all this real estate.
[00:36:29] And I think it's actually a possible answer he's like look we were trying to attract the best talent in the world and we were asking them to come move to the Bahamas to work at FTX.
[00:36:40] We were giving them $200 a day in door to ask credits we were giving them homes.
[00:36:46] I'm sure you're home so apartments condos to live in for sure that's not that crazy I don't think so I think he could have just said yeah I bought my parents a house and there in the process of dissolving that and that money will return to you know the bankruptcy court on behalf of FTX.
[00:37:03] But yeah I just wanted to buy my parents house but it got very weird. So this is why this is funny to me because like I just think the biggest I rules of the of all time man I'm going to read.
[00:37:17] Exactly this is a transcript on coin desk which I will include in the show notes. But there's also reports that your parents signed and were effectively provided with what seemed like a vacation home.
[00:37:29] Okay, you have parents I have parents if you're alive you have parents whether or not you have relationship with them. Here's what he says so I don't know the details of the house for my parents.
[00:37:43] There's more to the answer but yes I you know no I get that I get that I get that okay. And then if you ran a 20 billion dollar company or you were worth that.
[00:37:52] And you were going to buy them a home or use their name in which required their signatures as they are law professors at Stanford. Would you have a casual relationship about that transaction to where you go.
[00:38:08] So I don't know the details of the house for my parents no no I would not and in addition to that.
[00:38:15] I mean I have to jump through compliance hoops for way less not a set of dollars home and I'm not the CEO in this case and company would never buy my parents anything but. Very strange that's a that part was maybe the most strange answer.
[00:38:31] But I knew that it was not intended to be their long term property so that's so I don't know the details but I know is not intended to be their long term property now is a plausible that they were having issues.
[00:38:40] Getting loans to buy a massive property that they needed a co-signer on because that yes it is but that's not what he said that that's that's what's weird to me just answer just say yeah I bought my parents a house and they're going to sell it or.
[00:38:55] Or quite frankly let's say he's being honest he said after that it was I know it was intended to be the company's property okay earlier he alluded how it was difficult for the FTX to get bank accounts okay how about you say you know it's difficult to get loans to buy homes here when we're trying to set up housing.
[00:39:10] For our employees and we were having some issues getting around something we need to do to close this transaction I asked my parents were a lot professors if they be willing to lend their name to this.
[00:39:20] To allow like a creditor backing to this and they agreed to so we could expect the process to get more homes for our employees to live in that we're bringing down that's a completely plausible and reasonable thing to say instead he said so I don't know the details of the house from my parents.
[00:39:34] And you read those what his a whole answer because I think and from memory he struggled through it so I want to see if that actually comes through in the text.
[00:39:41] Yeah, so he said I don't know but I knew it was not intended to be their long-term property I know it was intended to be the company's property. I don't know how that was prepared in and I think that was where it was.
[00:39:51] Was it will end up okay that's him struggling yeah. I think they may have stayed there while working with the company sometime over the last year because he's unsure if his parents ever stayed in the property which.
[00:40:02] When you look at the rest of it there were a lot of properties purchased in the Bahamas you know the reason for that is we had you know 100 you know basically 100 silicon valley you know like literally this is when he goes and talking about we want we're trying to incentivize that.
[00:40:17] And it's a little reasonable yeah yeah reasonable but again like that's why I listen to this and I'm like you are.
[00:40:24] Playing the role of the dumbest executive in the history of time not even just like is that one of those things were like have made some bad decisions sure.
[00:40:32] But which you know the details around asking your up to this moment very well respected law professors to sign their names in the dotted line for a property for you you don't know the details of that.
[00:40:45] I don't know sure yeah no I agree on this one that this one's very strange. Very sure.
[00:40:50] Anyway sorry this is why I got angry and I was literally like I can't I have to listen to this because I'm gonna talk about it but like I just discussed me when I listen.
[00:40:58] One of the next questions that Andrew asks Sam about is the illegal drug use and actually I love if I wish I had the transcripts in front of me I would have just copied and pasted them but can you read Andrew's question.
[00:41:11] Because he formulated it in a pretty generous way I thought. Yeah, I'm trying to find exactly where that is so when you're talking about oh here we go here we go can I ask about the drugs you have tweeted about it.
[00:41:24] Caroline is tweeted others have tweeted about a person downers and all sorts of things there but pictures taken of something called the msam which apparently decrease increases levels of dopamine to the brain to repeat Parkinson's re taking that patch.
[00:41:38] Sam says so it's funny I had my first of a alcohol relevant after my 21st birthday and I had maybe half a glass of alcohol year roughly speaking just like I'm a vegan but I eat shrimp.
[00:41:47] There were no wild parties here when we had parties with played board games and you know 20% of people would have three quarters of a beer.
[00:41:53] So he knows that 20% of people would have three quarters of beer but you know I really know the details around my parents home in the Bahamas dude come on you can't be that specific in respect to me.
[00:42:03] Like oh yeah, but that whole 70 million dollar property not sure but I do know 20% of people have three quarters trying to paint a picture of like we weren't having crazy parties like it and that's the that's the picture that you try to paint.
[00:42:15] I'm sorry, I'm going to take that I'm going to take that chasm to drive through how insane it is let me finish and you can go on your deal.
[00:42:21] I didn't see any illegal drug use around me here at the office of these parties when I say parties but I haven't people over dinners what I mean.
[00:42:27] And then this is the point that gives them an out because look I've been prescribed that are all in my life I've been ADHD since I was 12 man.
[00:42:33] He said and look I can't talk with anyone else like what they're prescribed between themselves and their doctors or psychiatrists which I'm pretty sure in Bahamas you can go to a store and pick up a lot of these things but regardless.
[00:42:43] I can say for me or not I don't know I've been prescribed various things at various times to help with focus and concentration I think they have done that. I don't know if it didn't come through in the coin desk.
[00:42:55] Combs or whatever but yeah he said something kind of funny I thought he said I wish I was a lot more focused. Oh yeah, sorry. Yeah so anyway I think these have all just been totally on label use of medications and I think that these.
[00:43:09] Have on the margin help me focus a little bit. I had about a lot more focused over the last year. That part's kind of funny. I mean the situation is not funny but that part's funny.
[00:43:25] So I thought that was an interesting answer that he gave pretty pretty what would you call that like a political answer. Like hey I don't know I can't speak to other people's prescriptions or non prescriptions like that's not really any my business easy top out.
[00:43:37] And then says like yeah I've a prescription and I use the prescription. It's incredibly like they weren't talking about like you know free basing cocaine they're talking about upper than down or student.
[00:43:47] You know what you drink caffeine you're taking an upper like I have no real issue with that like I have much greater issue with the incompetence than I do with the drugs. Very enough obviously.
[00:43:59] So Andrew asked a question about the lack of board oversight he's like hey FDX had no board oversight and so I the way the same answered this I don't know whether this is true or not but I found it. I found it.
[00:44:11] Interesting because he said honestly I feel like we had too many boards and then the the feed cut off he disconnected. Yeah, and then they brought it back on he's sorry I disconnected. He said frankly we had too many boards he said we had all these different.
[00:44:27] I'll call them shell companies but I don't mean it in a negative way we had FDX Japan we had the Bahamas entity we had the US entity we had maybe the international entity.
[00:44:35] And they all had boards he's like I actually think that that was a mistake because by having so many boards each one didn't feel a cute responsibility.
[00:44:45] They felt responsibility for a small part of the of the whole and they're like oh you know my part doesn't matter and if everybody thinks my part doesn't matter then no one's actually really paying attention.
[00:44:55] And I thought that this maybe is a credible answer because the accusation that at least I've been seeing on Twitter and never else is like there was no board there is no oversight.
[00:45:07] I don't know maybe that is true but I thought his answer was news to me and that there were a lot of boards and he actually thought that it was a bad thing because then no one felt responsible.
[00:45:17] But frankly I will put this out here right now if you're listening to this and you know someone who is on one of these boards of one of these international versions of FDX we would love to talk to them and hear what those responsibilities were because as far as I know no one's ever been like yeah how was on the board of FDX Australia and this is what we talked about.
[00:45:33] And so I understand what you're saying and I don't even necessarily disagree with it like you have too many cooks in the kitchen and like oh somebody else will do it or whatever and like that happens all the time and like that happened to me and my professional life where it was like I have someone else will do it.
[00:45:46] You know like you hear and then she falls through the cracks I'm sure you have it at path where you as a grown like crazy and like you're the ops guy so I'm sure that you have to see everything you can't do everything.
[00:45:55] I'm sure I don't know how can handle it okay well maybe not all right and that's hard to do so I completely understand that however let's be real for moment he's saying.
[00:46:10] Maybe we had too many boards okay presumably he was a part either actually on or something on each one of them. Let's say they didn't exist let's say they didn't exist let's say there were just one board that handled everything.
[00:46:30] And they had to get like a person for me to region to be on the main board and that way everybody was having which quite frankly is what I should have been but.
[00:46:38] So now we're talking about so many like Sam being the chief executive and chairman for a bunch of boards.
[00:46:46] And the guy is clearly incompetent as an executive not incompetent as a human I want to make them like I've made the assertions over time to do something whatever and he is not like I'm not saying like you tested as I cue he stupid he's just clearly unfit to lead anything.
[00:47:00] So so okay so a roll's up to Sam now Sam's what made the mistakes to begin with bro you built the structure like well maybe we should have had less you designed it.
[00:47:12] Who's fault is that it's yours it's you being a clown show that allowed all of this to happen to begin with we should have less boards okay.
[00:47:22] Fine dude, but you didn't show the ability to manage any piece of your business well and I will point you to their internal financials. The main mothership.
[00:47:34] They couldn't locate bank accounts they didn't know where money was being held and then do you know where money is held for your company yes.
[00:47:42] Okay, I thought so man we're talking about a company that is hundreds of times larger than yours or was not anymore you guys were wouldn't they ask now but like and they didn't know where the bank accounts were what are we talking about.
[00:47:55] I don't know I'm conflicted because my feeling is that their setup was so complicated maybe intentionally maybe by design maybe in the fairer.
[00:48:08] Okay, I'll like maybe let's assume for a moment that it wasn't that it's it's actually just hard to do all of these things as a crypto company because you want to.
[00:48:18] You want to skirt that law you want to play on this great line you want to operate here but you don't really want to alert the attention of somebody there like all of those things. Reasonable finance does them. Finance just does them better than FTX right now.
[00:48:31] No, so so I think it's just hard for me to play Monday morning quarterback and say you're an idiot you fucked up you weren't paying attention now what I will say is that's actually a question to finance.
[00:48:45] You know in terms of business size so maybe volume is the best way to think about it previously how much bigger finance is or was then FTX was.
[00:48:55] A lot like I any guests that multiple I'll make if I'm the guest it's like 10 okay so so then it would be reasonable for finance to have 10 times as many employees as FTX maybe.
[00:49:07] But the thing was FTX ran so lean they had maybe 300 employees total and I think that this ended up being a big problem for them and what Sam should have done was.
[00:49:20] Just be the face there was a time where he had to be the hack it guy he had to go solve a problem in whatever way possible and you know what that ended up was Jerry Raging things a bank account here a bank account there or whatever connect.
[00:49:36] Oh whatever connect on may it works. Oh thank God let's move on to the next problem. I can relate to that dude there yeah they were in hypergrowth for three years they were just trying to stay afloat and what should have happened finance has over 7000 employees 7000.
[00:49:53] So if we have said to my questions right which I don't know it is a be 25x right 25 times more employees then. I think that's part of it dude one person cannot do all this one person cannot know everything see everything.
[00:50:11] I don't care who it is go to go to Elon he doesn't know what's going on in the minute details of open AI and and Tesla and like you're just one person and so what I think.
[00:50:22] I mean Sam admitted it a hundred times yesterday was like I at the end of the day the buck stops with me and that's the CEO response you have to have that response but he needed to put people in place that were operationally experienced.
[00:50:36] It would have slowed him down and that's why I didn't my opinion yeah I agree and there's there's one piece that I want to pull up here.
[00:50:46] That I want to talk about that we be skipped over here but while we're doing that you're right he should have hired more he should have hired more people to help him run this I imagine there was probably part of the embarrassment like hey where this.
[00:51:03] You know 10 figure company more and we keep our books on in Excel spreadsheet that has been well done we don't actually know the main cuts are so like you don't want to bring people into that but like the other part of it man is they went out of their way.
[00:51:20] To keep that circle really really small they went out of the way to keep a small they use dissolving communications where things automatically deleted so there was no paper trail so tell me the business reason for that okay what you guys I can answer.
[00:51:38] What so yeah so what's the business reason. After you're an established company when you're when you have a competitive advantage and you're growing a kind of get it but when you're a multi billion dollar company. What is the point of having no paper trail. Specifically with chat messages.
[00:51:59] Sure yeah I mean it's all like that's what they did their payroll through chat messages that were deleted okay not pay like what's been approved yeah okay that's it sorry. But still why why would you do that.
[00:52:10] I believe that the reason that they did that was to avoid a paper trail just like you're saying however what I would say is.
[00:52:19] It's all speculation of whether that was done because they were doing something illegal and didn't want to get caught and covering up the tracks or.
[00:52:30] You know you're on the gray line you know that it cryptos hard man it's hard they're running in exchange that probably shouldn't exist so like if everybody crypto wants a product like that you have to understand every exchange that you're interacting with. That is like FTAX.
[00:52:47] It's a gray line and they didn't want a technicality to be the thing that they tripped over that's the that's the best case scenario worst case scenario was it was a positive game of fraud bubble and I get that it's easy to go to this I'm saying don't take the.
[00:53:01] You know don't take these you got think about it intellectually and say like no there is another side where this is somewhere in the middle.
[00:53:08] I'm you know what Alan I have no problem in getting given is even as cynical as I've been throughout this entire episode I have no problem in the that that does fall somewhere in the middle okay.
[00:53:19] But it looks to me like someone who has grown up under the thumb of two legal professors saying let's talk about plausible the liability man every decision they made was set up with the I'm not sure defense and he's going to get away.
[00:53:36] I initially thought this dude would do time like real time now.
[00:53:39] I don't think he is I really don't because you would not be this fucking stupid to give these interviews if you did not feel tremendous about what happened next and that kind of goes into my last thing and I think you had to go but I want to I want to okay.
[00:53:57] The question that Andrew asked about his future was the most arrogant and theoryating thing he said of the entire interview.
[00:54:08] Bubblebunner and ops is to talk about that what do you think realistically is your future Sam what is my future I don't know my future is and you know when he fast forward I have no idea what I'm going to be doing bubble bubble bubble.
[00:54:19] But I want to be helpful where if I can regulate it or administrators and you know I don't know where that will lead but I know that I can say prior to filing there have been a lot of interesting financing a lot of fairly strong interest you know many billions of dollars worth.
[00:54:32] I can't make any promises about anything but I would have thought that there would be a chance for a path before here that would bring more value to customers than what would happen if you just sort of sold everything else for scraps.
[00:54:42] And I don't have confidence but I can promise you and I can't promise anyone anything and there's not one thing in my hands, but it would make sense to be exploring that because I think this chance the customers can have a lot more whole I don't know maybe even fully whole so this dude thinks.
[00:54:57] That his future is a slight shade different than what he has been doing that's how confident he is he's going to get away with very little civil or criminal penalty.
[00:55:09] I read that differently so the way that I read that answer is what I think he was saying the first part we said I don't know what my future is I want to be helpful to regulators I read that as talking about this FTX bankruptcy situation.
[00:55:22] Meaning if the company wants me to come in and help them decipher why this money's there what happened then I'm happy to do that. The second part of what you said was like the billions of dollars and I feel like customers could be whole etc etc.
[00:55:34] The way that I read that was pertaining to his answer in previous interviews where he said filing bankruptcy was my biggest mistake in all of this.
[00:55:44] He alleges that eight minutes I think he says after I fell for eight minutes yeah I had billions of dollars of investor interest.
[00:55:52] I don't know whether that's true or not I mean but if you're if you have money on FTX you wish that was true you hope that was true I don't know whether it is or not but that's the way I think he's answering the question I don't know what else you say there.
[00:56:07] What what does he say that makes you happy I'll probably be in jail like does I make happy.
[00:56:12] I I would like to see some contrition and some acknowledging the fact that he will never be a main player in this space ever again because he shouldn't and like how do you not know that.
[00:56:24] I know that like you literally just lost billions of dollars because of your incompetence and you think that you're just going to roll a red carpet out people will make yeah let's go again and I remember like Mr. What's his nuts was like yeah I didn't invest in Sam again he just made some mistake you won't make him again like what.
[00:56:40] So we absolutely read it. Yeah this conversation at the office so I'll ask you the same question. So Sam DM's you okay he says Jared.
[00:56:49] JMP plus CV I really value your content I think you're smart guy I have a new venture that I'm going to be starting it's look FTS sucked it was great and then I made some really bad decisions I learned a ton I'm going to take those learnings I'm going to take sort of my.
[00:57:09] Previously known expertise in crypto and I'm going to start XYC. I would love for you to be a part of that I'm offering you seed round.
[00:57:20] Holy deluded valuation is 10 million bucks right this is ground floor this is an idea but I'm going to build it you're telling me you pass on that. Okay so there's this is a multi fast and an answer okay.
[00:57:36] One I happen to be in a situation where I don't need the money okay so like I feel like I'm well financially right I feel like I need to get in on everything and I can I can be more
[00:57:48] discerning to my morals whereas if I were lesser I would be like 10 million you can tear that into a hundred million I sell 10 million.
[00:57:55] I'm saying no I get that what I'm saying is the valuation is 10 million for him to get from 10 to 100 easy that's a 10x of however much money I'm putting it.
[00:58:02] Okay so like yes pragmatically that would make sense to do but let me tell you something it is the best piece of advice I've ever been given in my career okay and actually happened at the company we're Joel and I'm not talking about but.
[00:58:14] My boss back then was a man but the name of Otis Lock it okay user retired Air Force captain.
[00:58:21] It was the hardest fucking dude I've ever met in my life and I was very empathetic to people that performed poorly and did suspect things at the time that we were working together.
[00:58:32] And so I was going to his office I was a middle level manager at the time and he was my director and I would go in and I would say yes but I think blank person has this and I think blank person has that.
[00:58:41] And he goes Jared I'm going to help you out for rest of your life right now.
[00:58:46] You don't always know who people are when you work with him you got to feel them out you got to see how they operate you got to see what they do and you have to form an opinion but sometimes. People will show you who they are.
[00:59:02] And the best advice that I can give you for the rest of your career is when someone shows you who they are. Believe them.
[00:59:13] Sam just showed that he's a piece of shit executive that he doesn't know how to run organization that he was at best talking mouth with political ties that used that to leverage himself into a situation to get vastly rich which he then.
[00:59:26] Screwed up and not only screwed up screwed up to the tune to massive harm across people around the world sand bankman freed showed me who he is and he is incompetent to run an organization.
[00:59:38] So no sand bankman freed show me who he is and he's a crook I would absolutely not do that. Yeah. You know I'm saying though like you think about it. I think he's a veteran. I mean you know what though Alan so let me ask you this.
[01:00:00] Apples the apples you have two competing offers one Sam one somebody else for the exact same seed round are you choosing Sam or anybody else. Hard to answer that because my answer would be it depends who the other person is someone who isn't a fraud.
[01:00:19] No I don't think I am like and here's why. Perfect example you know the name Adam Newman. I do but it's the we were founder. Oh got you.
[01:00:35] So we work similar type of similar type of situation huge fast growing business all from grace CEO lot of people called him a fraud called the company this this and that they're now.
[01:00:52] They're not operating business they have tons of clients I don't think they make money they ever have a new but they don't you know they're not profitable Adam Newman failed at we work.
[01:01:01] I think we can agree about that he's getting a second chance so and in a massive second chance they raised a really big round from investors who invested in the first time. Businesses fail more often than not now.
[01:01:20] I do not take this out of context I'm not playing Sam defense I'm just saying that. I have a hard time swallowing as someone that's also in this space that will likely make mistakes at some point I can always guarantee that I will not.
[01:01:36] Be committing fraud or or a. I think I'm a fürs and then subtract if one şimdi allegedly stealing money but people make mistakes and so I have a her time accepting the fact that someone should never get another chance again. Oh look I after prison after.
[01:01:51] Like what you just you works at Walmart for otherarme's life giving care no,
[01:01:56] you and I both don't there are plenty of ways in which you'll be able to make a living the rest of his life, no problem just because he knows the systems well enough to do well like.
[01:02:03] off to do well. Like that's it, just based on what he knows about order books, you could trade or invest or do things and make money and he's fine. So yes, I guess I don't disagree with
[01:02:11] you. The weird thing I actually never watched like the documentary and I know that like they blew up magnificently. They missed what they were going to do. They lost investors. Not not retail money. That's the difference. Correct. And like a failed venture to me is actually something
[01:02:27] that should be looked upon favorably if you did it the way in which you said you were going to try to do and it didn't work out. You learn valuable lessons. You will get better. That is we're talking about an attempt that failed versus gross incompetence,
[01:02:42] possibly criminally like those are two different things, man. And so like if you were like yeah you're going to throw 100 grand like all right sweet and then like 12 months later you're like
[01:02:50] yo what's gone? I'd be like well, no, but that but I'm saying that's that's yeah that's the bet is like you have a maximum loss of 100 percent and like that's that's as bad as it can get.
[01:03:01] So when you want to see the perspective from a plus even perspective which is my name on Twitter it makes total sense. What I'm saying is that morally like the hearsay thing dude,
[01:03:09] you know what if you had a chance to throw him with Hitler when he founded Volkswagen? You're like not a little man there's dude's got something going on with the area in race. Let me throw in 25
[01:03:17] G's into Volkswagen because it could be good one day. I don't care that he's killing all the Jews. Like are you willing to do that because it's a pretty good return? That's what we're talking about.
[01:03:26] Some okay I guess I somehow see Hitler and Sam differently. So I'm sure you're defined that for that I guess. No, but what I'm saying is they're it's a shade of gray and like I would have to be in
[01:03:38] pre-dire circumstances to run full steam into a room to be like yes this is the dude I want to align with and while I'm probably in the minority of that and I could probably ask people in my
[01:03:49] chat room that's got 800 people. I'll ask the same question via a poll let's see what they say. Like I'm guessing most people would say yes because it's probably easy money. What I'm saying
[01:03:56] for me as someone who doesn't need that money I'd rather say no and try to watch that do die than ever give him a chance to succeed again given what I know he's done and how he said himself up to
[01:04:08] escape it like it's unbelievable. I mean fair enough I he probably will. Yeah so last question for you you mentioned earlier that you originally thought Sam would would see jail time I think is the
[01:04:23] way that you phrased it and now you're not so sure. Where would you put the odds? I think there's a 10% chance he sees instead of himself 10%. Because I think every answer he gives and every interview he does I'm like this motherfucker has had
[01:04:38] the best legal consultation ever and he's getting things on the record that all his news defend his interviews and that's a much easier to do than to answer questions live and he's going to
[01:04:49] have every answer sucks that with no no all shocks and he's going to be a really good job and quite frankly he paid the right people like let's be real man look at people who are mid-mid-class
[01:04:58] middle class or upper middle class and above who get DUIs for the first time in this country. They have no issues that should stop the record in no time. If you're poor and you can't afford to go to
[01:05:06] attorney you go to jail you get a suspended license like it's just how the legal system works so yeah this dude is literally paying the right people he did the right things he has the
[01:05:15] off shocks a shit of known better defense which I think is all garbage but he did it brilliantly so good for him okay to that to that point one of the last questions and we can wrap up on this one
[01:05:27] that Azure asked was how much money do you have left and Sam said about 100k what do you believe that not at all not even for a moment do I believe that not to mention he insulated himself in a lot
[01:05:41] of his investments from FDX like Robinhood is not a part of that I'm not sure Robinhood. It is not true Robin Robinhood was pledged as collateral in the blockfide deal so if and and
[01:05:54] blackfy is suing the suing Sam personally because the bank that is custody in the Robinhood shares is not giving them up to blackfy and they're holding those Robinhood shares I think presumably
[01:06:09] I don't think this is like proven but I think for the FDX bankruptcy or a chapter 11 process so I don't believe that's future so let's say that's an archer and maybe that's wrong fine
[01:06:22] do you think that dude given what we know about how crypto works you think that dude has and put away millions of dollars somewhere that nobody knows about I tend to don't even have accounting that
[01:06:31] tend to have that no worship went I tend to agree with you you're not that he's good at crypto can we both agree with that? Absolutely okay you don't have a hundred k yeah get the fuck out of your
[01:06:42] man oh I have a credit card this still works and I have a hundred grand a bank yeah bullshit and like how much did you give you parents in back alley channels or friends or people to hold
[01:06:50] on so you got a burn-back somewhere like no way dude he's gonna be fine I just don't see any scenario where he's only got a hundred k and he doesn't have any crypto anywhere yeah it's garbage
[01:07:01] I mean whatever we'll see what happens it's gonna be like I really really badly want to stop talking about this and I know we'll never get to and that sucks because I feel like every time
[01:07:08] I talk about him like I'm doing him a favor that he doesn't deserve but it is what it is like we have to because it's part of our industry and that's his podcast but like they're so much of what
[01:07:20] I am about an in crypto for at my core he allegedly espoused to people anyway and then he did the exact opposite for personal gain in the face of effective altruism and that is literally I cannot hate him anymore
[01:07:40] and I didn't even lose any money in this I didn't lose any money imagine if I did yeah I think I'm believable I think that has been a stark contrast where you see like some of the
[01:07:50] feedback that he gets after these interviews from prominent people Kevin O'Leary, Bill Ackman Well Kevin O'Leary did lose money in this Bill Ackman as far as I know did not sort of like saying like yeah
[01:08:02] you got to give the kid another chance like he messed up and I think that a lot of people who didn't lose money and and this may be part of my problem is I didn't lose money on FTEX either
[01:08:13] plus I have sympathy whether warranted or unwarranted for the operator aspect of like this is just hard he's the same age that I am right and like I think he's smarter than I am maybe true maybe not
[01:08:27] but so like you know I guess if Sam can mess up so so can anyone is sort of the way that I feel about it right or wrong and but then there's a whole another crowd that lost money on there
[01:08:39] and I would probably be in this camp too of just like I don't even want to see him again I get that that's totally fair so I said it was the last question but I have one more yeah go um
[01:08:49] do you think that him doing these interviews are positive for him or negative for him? Well I kind of just set that up I see in that I think that when he when he does get called a
[01:09:04] Congress all these nasty news defenders interviews which he can rigorously prepare for and then he ready to defend so I think it is definitely done strategically. Whether or not I think it's good or bad you know I think that I guess you give him credit for not
[01:09:20] hiding in a closet somewhere so I guess that's positive but the same time in like you know I don't care how many old ladies he crosses the street who need it like he lost 10 billion dollars so okay. It's not the first first personal loose 10 million dollars.
[01:09:38] Billion yeah. So I think that they are positive for him but my caveat is he all of the interviews that he has done thus far that I'm aware of at least correctly from wrong have been
[01:09:55] non-crypto native people and I think that might be intentional because they are less likely to know the right questions to ask or when to say wait that answer doesn't make sense and I know
[01:10:07] that doesn't make sense because I have this experience and now I'm gonna double down on that question. He hasn't done that yet and maybe that's because all of the people that know what questions to ask
[01:10:18] he doesn't want to talk to or they're too small and he's like I can't stand with my time I'll go talk to the New York Times I'll go talk to Andrew Sorke and whatever but there is one coming
[01:10:27] up as far as I'm aware with the block and that is Frank I forget. I'm a little bit wary because whether Frank wants to paint it this way or not they were close. I saw plenty of pictures of them
[01:10:43] together at dinner and they're flirting across tweets and so like that part's interesting although there's a guy I'm blanking on his last name Canadian guy on Twitter Adam something
[01:10:54] some sense with a C he responded to that said let me be the cohost because I know what questions to ask. I think Frank probably knows what questions to ask as well and I'll give Frank the benefit of
[01:11:06] the doubt and like what's just wait and see whether he ends up being a good journalist or whether he's too buddy buddy I don't know you would imagine he lost a lot of money on FTX 2 and it's probably
[01:11:14] as a vulnerability but I will be sorry I withhold my answer whether these interviews are a good idea or not until he does one with a crypto native person who knows what questions to ask
[01:11:26] because I think that will be the job test. I think that's pretty reasonable you know I guess I have so much bitch real I'll tell you I'm going to see that clearly and like like I think that
[01:11:36] I see just a massive void between a venture that failed in what he did okay because like I have been a sea level executive board I have ran an apartment at a budget and I did it for a
[01:11:49] small company and we were more so my LLC is more sophisticated than FTX was okay that to me says that there's like it not he tried to fail it's that he did it so spectacularly that I can't imagine
[01:12:04] they're being another side of this but I'll be damned if he doesn't try and like I think we're seeing very clearly that Sam loves him some Sam dude like Sam is really into Sam okay like he loves
[01:12:16] given interviews he loves talking about stuff and quite frankly what I know even the most about the air in the circus and the Sorcene interview was like what he was smiling man when they
[01:12:23] introduced him like shut up you know like stop it you should look like you just ended thousands of people's lives because you did yeah I mean I think most people will be on your side I
[01:12:37] honestly it's the easier it's it might be the right path but I do think that it's the easier path because generally my opinion is that every every scandal the truth is somewhere in the middle
[01:12:51] and so I don't think that it's full fraud full pondsy full I don't think it's ever I think either one man let's be honest they wouldn't have never they would never have invested in path if they
[01:13:02] were okay they never would have invested in path because there's very little they can do with that investment they have right now okay like clearly he changed to where he wanted liquidity as
[01:13:12] investments very quickly so like I don't think that's who he was through and through but I think that you can see a very clear pattern to me of someone who was protecting his girlfriend that's
[01:13:21] sought going down the drain I tried to call it every stop that he could to keep it going and then when it didn't work is now we're treating under the I guess I should have paid attention more
[01:13:30] and like that in the least me yeah no you I think you have ever right to feel that way and you might be right I think most people will agree with you yeah well again we'll see what happens I don't really know but
[01:13:40] like yeah I can say pretty confidently that I guess to your question about what I invest my answer would be no it's easy to say that right now but at the same time if our big enough person for
[01:13:50] Sam to ring my doorbell somebody else would do and I'd much rather give it anyway this has been fun man episode 15 a lot of hot takes here I imagine this is going to get a decent response
[01:14:02] and view mainly because I just kept on losing my mind and I can't help I think I'll get it recent you do no one's not only wants to be the same defender like like I said it's easier to just
[01:14:12] it's easier to not be and so I I think I I expect more heat than I think I'll hey and it will see only time will tell I'll play us out here in the episode 15 crypto pair of bell and podcast
[01:14:25] the final next week we'll be up so 16 talk about backlash when's the block in your youth I don't know I don't think it's fun announced today when we find out what you guys have otherwise thank you for tuning in
[01:14:39] crypto herbal podcast and click the word we're taking to care